CCC 841

[ICTHUS]

[quote]The Church's relationship with the Muslims. "The plan of salvation also includes those who acknowledge the Creator, in the first place amongst whom are the Muslims; these profess to hold the faith of Abraham, and together with us they adore the one, merciful God, mankind's judge on the last day."330[/quote]

[b]This statement is a damnable heresy and can be easily refuted[/b]

[u][b]The Qu'ran says[/b][/u]

"Proclaim: Allah is One. Allah is Eternal. He neither begets nor was begotten." (112:1-4)

"And proclaim: Praise be to Allah, Who has not taken unto Himself a son, and Who has no partner in the Sovereignty, nor has He (need for) any protecting friend through dependence. (17:111)

[u][b]God's Holy Word says[/b][/u]

John 1:14

And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory [b]as of the only begotten of the Father[/b],) full of grace and truth.

John 3:16

For God so loved the world that he gave his [b]only-begotten Son[/b], that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Hebrews 5:5

So Christ also did not take upon himself the glory of becoming a high priest. But God said to him, “[b]You are my Son;
today I have begotten you[/b]."

Consequently, Muslims deny that God the Father has a Son.

Jesus said: Whoever has the Son has life; whoever does not have the Son of God does not have life. (1 Jn 5:12)

Muslims deny that God has a Son. Therefore, they do not have Life Eternal.

John 3:35-36

35The Father loves the Son and has placed everything in his hands. 36Whoever believes in the Son has eternal life, but whoever rejects the Son will not see life, for God's wrath remains on him.”[a]

Muslims, unless they come to Christ, will not see life, for God's wrath remains on them.

John 5:23

..that all may honor the Son just as they honor the Father. [b]He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father, who sent him[/b]

Muslims do not honour God because they do not honour the Son.

Therefore, Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God. Certainly, the Arabic word "Allah" is the only word to call God in the Arabic language*, but in the sense they use it, Allah and the triune God of the Bible are not the same God.

*indeed, the word is linguistically descended from the ancient Aramaic "Eloi" and related to the modern Aramaic "Allaha", all of which mean "Lord"

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]Muslims do not honour God because they do not honour the Son.
[/quote]


Agreed The Mohamedians have butchered God.

[cmotherofpirl]

"Therefore, Muslims and Christians do not worship the same God. Certainly, the Arabic word "Allah" is the only word to call God in the Arabic language*, but in the sense they use it, Allah and the triune God of the Bible are not the same God."


THere is only ONE God.

Jews worship the Father, but do not honor the Son either.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]THere is only ONE God.[/quote]

The fact that there is only one GOd doesn't mean everyone worships Him, the gods of the pagans are demons after all, just becaause the Mohamedians claim to worship He who is, does not mean that that is neccessarly the case.

[dUSt]

ICTHUS - You really should read the parts before and after that in the catechism. It is NOT saying that Muslims are saved. All that it is saying is simply this: they are included in the plan. Just like sinners, athiests, Jews, non-believers, etc, etc. EVERYBODY is called to be a follower of Christ. Jesus does not take one group of people and say to them "y'all ain't included in my plan. I didn't die for you folks, only these folks over here--sorry--tough luck."

C'mon man. You really don't believe that Christ calls Muslims to conversion?

[Phatmasser777]

If your Catholic its a MUST that you believe Muslims worship the same God, the Catechism affirms it, and multiple General Audience speeches by the Pope does as well.

[Don John of Austria]

Well mulitiple speechs by previous Popes say directly that they worship demons, We must be loyal to the Magisterium, there is no current magisterium or past magisterium there is just the Magisterium, and the Magisterium has said that the muslims worship demons.

[Phatmasser777]

Then it appears Jp2 is out of step with other Popes, unless you can prove otherwise.

[Don John of Austria]

Okay so he's out of step with other Popes, do you have a point?

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 13 2004, 01:01 PM'] the gods of the pagans are demons after all [/quote]
Do people really still believe this?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]Do people really still believe this? [/quote]


Everyone worthy of the name Christian. We have a whole thread on it< i'll see if I can find it for you.


Here you go---[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=24110&hl=devils"] Is it not True?[/url]

Edited December 13, 2004 by Don John of Austria

[p0lar_bear]

The Catechism does not say that Muslims are saved or that they don't need to be evangelized.

We need to look at what the paragraph is really saying.

1. Muslims are included in God's plan of salvation...well, everyone is. Believing in one God who spoke to Abraham makes them a lot closer than say, Hindus who have a pantheon of gods.

2. The profess belief in the God of Abraham...they do.

3. They worship the one, true God.

If they believe in the God of Abraham, the fact that there are many errors in their understanding of Him does not mean that it is not Him. They don't understand Him properly. They don't recognize His Triune nature, but neither do the Jews.

I like how [url="http://www.catholic.com/thisrock/2002/0207bt.asp"]this articl[/url] from Catholic Answers puts it:
[quote]To make clear how this works, allow me to take an example from pop culture: Suppose that you and I both knew millionaire Bruce Wayne. I might know, because he revealed it to me, that he is also Batman. You may hear this claim and reject it, in which case you adopt the false corollary belief "Batman is not Bruce Wayne." That does not mean that you don’t know and relate to either Bruce or Batman, it means only that you misunderstand the relationship between them.[/quote]

An imperfect or even seriously flawed understanding of God does not necessarily mean that it is not God. Take the example of Cornelius:

[quote]"Cornelius answered: "Four days ago I was in my house praying at this hour, at three in the afternoon. Suddenly a man in shining clothes stood before me and said, 'Cornelius, God has heard your prayer and remembered your gifts to the poor. Send to Joppa for Simon who is called Peter. He is a guest in the home of Simon the tanner, who lives by the sea.'" (Acts 10:30-32)[/quote]

Cornelius was not a Jew, but a pagan Gentile. He prayed to God, and God answered. Does anyone seriously think that he actually had a good understanding of who God is? I seriously doubt he even believed in the God of the Jews. He prayed to what he understood as God, flawed though that understanding was, and God answered him. Can it not be the same for the Muslims with their flawed understanding of God?

[thessalonian]

The example of Cornelius was cited above. Jesus also held the good samaritan up as an example of Christian behavior. Samaritans believed in the God of Israel but had their theology mixed with that of the paganism of the Assyrians. God does not hold men accountable for what they believe incorrectly in ignorance (Luke 12, but the man who does not know will recieve but few lashes). He saves by the truths that they hold in their hearts. These he implanted on their hearts, Romans 2:15. Let me emphasize that this does not mean that anyone is saved but that they MAY be saved. Thus Christ needs to be preached to them.


A bit of Dominus Iesus is worth quoting here:

22. With the coming of the Saviour Jesus Christ, God has willed that the Church founded by him be the instrument for the salvation of all humanity (cf. Acts 17:30 -31) (90). This truth of faith does not lessen the sincere respect which the Church has for the religions of the world, but at the same time, it rules out, in a radical way, that mentality of indifferentism characterized by a religious relativism which leads to the belief that 'one religion is as good as another' (91). If it is true that the followers of other religions can receive divine grace, it is also certain that objectively speaking they are in a gravely deficient situation in comparison with those who, in the Church, have the fullness of the means of salvation (92). However, all the children of the Church should nevertheless remember that their exalted condition results, not from their own merits, but from the grace of Christ. If they fail to respond in thought, word, and deed to that grace, not only shall they not be saved, but they shall be more severely judged (93). One understands then that, following the Lord's command (cf. Mt 28:19-20) and as a requirement of her love for all people, the Church proclaims and is in duty bound to proclaim without fail, Christ who is the way, the truth, and the life (Jn 14:6). In him, in whom God reconciled all things to himself (cf. 2 Cor 5:18-19), men find the fullness of their religious life (94).

In inter-religious dialogue as well, the mission ad gentes today as always retains its full force and necessity (95). Indeed, God desires all men to be saved and come to the knowledge of the truth' (1 Tim 2:4); that is, God wills the salvation of everyone through the knowledge of the truth. Salvation is found in the truth. Those who obey the promptings of the Spirit of truth are already on the way of salvation. But the Church, to whom this truth has been entrusted, must go out to meet their desire, so as to bring them the truth. Because she believes in God's universal plan of salvation, the Church must be missionary (96). Inter -religious dialogue, therefore, as part of her evangelizing mission, is just one of the actions of the Church in her mission ad gentes. (97). Equality, which is a presupposition of inter-religious dialogue, refers to the equal personal dignity of the parties in dialogue, not to doctrinal content, nor even less to the position of Jesus Christ, who is God himself made man, in relation to the founders of the other religions. Indeed, the Church, guided by charity and respect for freedom (98), must be primarily committed to proclaiming to all people the truth definitively revealed by the Lord, and to announcing the necessity of conversion to Jesus Christ and of adherence to the Church through Baptism and the other sacraments, in order to participate fully in communion with God, the Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Thus, the certainty of the universal salvific will of God does not diminish, but rather increases the duty and urgency of the proclamation of salvation and of conversion to the Lord Jesus Christ.



You want to hear something funny. Next thread Icthus will start up will be the "No Salvatoin OUtside the Church" This is BLASPHEMY! thread.

[una_fide]

Aren't there two or three different kinds of Magisterium? Like Authentic, etc., etc. Well, Father Corapi was explaining this and he said that there is one kind that you don't have to give the accent of faith to, but only religious accent.

[Guest JeffCR07]

The Authentic, Ordinary, and Extraordinary Magisterium are not three seperate Magisteriums, but rather are three classifications of Magisterial teaching. There is one Magisterium across time, united by the Pontiff of Rome. We must always remember that it is erroneous to cast the definitive teachings of the Magisterium from one time against those of another, for such teachings cannot contradict each other.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff