Not Christian without Mary?

[I Choose to Be Holy]

Hey, this is cool. I am all about the devotions to Mary. I once read that Jesus doesn't pick favorites, but His mother does. I thought that was kind of funny. Please don't bite my head off though if I am completely off but here is my 2 cents:
1) As Christians, we don't NEED Mary and the saints and such, but it is a gift from God to make our journey to heaven easier. Its not something we have to do, its something we get to do.
2) Jesus was sinless, yes. I doubt anyone would attempt to argue that. However, being sinless doesn't mean He kept the 613 precepts of Torah. That was one of the reasons the Pharisees had such a problem with Him. He worked on Sabbath, for example. Its like Paul's letter to the Galatians. Works don't equal sinlessness. However, thats completely off topic but based on the original post I wanted to clarify it.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Dec 13 2004, 04:01 PM'] lol. Yeah, the cross is offensive there bud. but right... it's not essential, let's abandon it? What does that say about integrity? Honesty? Picking up our crosses and bearing them for the truth?

If another soul ends up in hell because someone would not give up truth, that is between that soul and God. If someone tells me to abandon the offense of the cross and they will consider becoming Christian, it ain't gonna happen.

Mary is as much a foundational part of the Gospel as John the Baptist is, and even more so. Education, not abandonment is the path to true freedom. [/quote]
The veneration (read: worship) of Mary is not foundational to the Gospel.

[peach_cube]

The moon is totally made of coagulated milk!!

Check it [url="http://www.objectivethought.com/science/coagulated milk.html"]out!!!![/url]

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 13 2004, 05:48 PM'] The veneration (read: worship) of Mary is not foundational to the Gospel. [/quote]
Dr. Luke doesn't seem to agree. "Hail Mary, full of grace..." "all generations shall call me blessed..." "blessed are you among woman...."

And no, of course ICTHUS, veneration does not equal worship. Just who are you trying to kid? Yourself?

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='peach_cube' date='Dec 13 2004, 06:33 PM'] The moon is totally made of coagulated milk!!

Check it [url="http://www.objectivethought.com/science/coagulated milk.html"]out!!!![/url]


[/quote]
see? i told you...

[Benedict]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 13 2004, 03:48 PM'] The veneration (read: worship) of Mary is not foundational to the Gospel. [/quote]
Icthus just has a reading problem. He keeps changing the meaning of words around.

[RandomProddy]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 13 2004, 11:48 PM'] The veneration (read: worship) of Mary is not foundational to the Gospel. [/quote]
Luke 1:46-56


46And Mary said: ?My soul glorifies the Lord
47and my spirit rejoices in God my Savior, 48for he has been mindful
of the humble state of his servant. From now on all generations will call me blessed,
49for the Mighty One has done great things for me?
holy is his name. 50His mercy extends to those who fear him,
from generation to generation. 51He has performed mighty deeds with his arm;
he has scattered those who are proud in their inmost thoughts. 52He has brought down rulers from their thrones
but has lifted up the humble. 53He has filled the hungry with good things
but has sent the rich away empty. 54He has helped his servant Israel,
remembering to be merciful 55to Abraham and his descendants forever,
even as he said to our fathers.?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='Benedict' date='Dec 13 2004, 08:17 PM'] Icthus just has a reading problem. He keeps changing the meaning of words around. [/quote]
ICTHUS is just trying to get a bug up our behinds. He knows better but does it anyway.

[Phatmasser777]

[quote name='MagiDragon' date='Dec 13 2004, 01:59 PM'] no, you don't need Mary . . . unless you plan on winning battles against the devil. If you're content to yield ground all the way to hell, then go right ahead.

Read the Bible! Revelation 11:19-12:1 strongly implies that Mary is the new Ark of the Covenant. (Revelation may have been written before Mary's death, so it could have been innappropriate to name her directly in such a passage, but can you offer other suggestions for who the 'woman clothed with the sun' might be?) Also, remember what the Ark was: a case that held the bread of life in the desert, the word of God, and the staff of priesthood. Look at Mary, what did she hold? The Bread of Life, the Word of God, and the eternal Priest. See any similarities?

Also, we know that Mary is Queen of Heaven: the old testament foreshadows the new Davidic kingdom. Who is queen in the Davidic kingdom? The king's wife? NO! it's the king's mom!

What is the Queen's role in the Kingdom? She's the intercessor. People go to her to ask for things from the King. Look in first Kings 2:12-2:18. You'll see that the way the people treated the Queen is almost exactly as we treat Mary: we ask her to get stuff for us from the King.

Also, we must treat the Queen with the same respect as the King treats her. (See 1Kings2:19)

Mary deserves our respect and we are obligated to give it. To be a faithful Christian we *MUST* respect Mary.

And don't insult Our Mom again!

Peace,
Joe [/quote]
Christians have been 'defeating' the 'devil' for centuries without Mary. Plus its God who has the power not Mary. Its God who gives the power to humans to cast our demons not Mary.

[Archangel]

Genesis 3:15 tells us who is on God and Mary's side and who is on the devil's:

[b]I will put enmity between you and the woman, and [u]between your offspring and hers[/u];[/b] He will strike at your head, while you strike at his heel.

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Dec 14 2004, 03:58 AM'] Christians have been 'defeating' the 'devil' for centuries without Mary. Plus its God who has the power not Mary. Its God who gives the power to humans to cast our demons not Mary. [/quote]
what you didn't know this?

THis has nothing to do with the veneration given to the first great disciple - Mary, the Mother of God.

I suggest you go read the Early Church Fathers.

Edited December 14, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[Don John of Austria]

Veneration of Mary is good, however, as much as it pains me, I must agree with Ithcus veneration of Mary is not required for salvation.

[p0lar_bear]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 14 2004, 10:52 AM'] Veneration of Mary is good, however, as much as it pains me, I must agree with Ithcus veneration of Mary is not required for salvation. [/quote]
It is true that veneration of Mary is not necessary for salvation. However, if someone denies any of the Marian dogmas, he is outside of the Catholic Faith and his salvation, while still possible, is called into question. To deny one part of the Catholic Faith is to deny it in its entirety. Pope Pius XII makes reference to this (which is commonly called the organic unity of the faith) in his Apostolic Constitution Munificentissimus Deus, defining the Assumption:

[quote]45. Hence if anyone, which God forbid, should dare willfully to deny or to call into doubt that which we have defined, let him know that he has fallen away completely from the divine and Catholic Faith.[/quote]

While the veneration of Mary is not necessary, believing in her Immaculate Conception is. ICTHUS didn't start this thread to say that we don't have to pray the rosary to be saved, but to say that the Church should deny the Immaculate Conception and other beliefs about Mary because some people don't understand them.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]However, if someone denies any of the Marian dogmas, he is outside of the Catholic Faith and his salvation, while still possible, is called into question[/quote]



True, however, acceptance of the Marian Doctrines is not what is at issue here, only her Veneration. Veneration is not required for salvation, veneration is not required by the Church.

[p0lar_bear]

But that's not what ICTHUS was talking about. He started by saying he repudiated all the "anti-Biblical" beliefs about Mary and that the Church should drop them because they confused people.

I agree that veneration is not necessary. I just want to be clear that the Church cannot give up the dogmas of the Immaculate Conception and the Assumption, because they are necessary.