Uncoditional Election / Limited Atonement

[thessalonian]

These statements simply floor me:

"If Christ's sacrifice was for all mankind, then all mankind would be saved. Clearly, this is false. "


Sure, it's sufficent, but it is only intended for the Elect. This is clearly manifest, because not all are saved. If everyones sins were paid for, then everyone would be elect! "

I can refute that heresy in one verse:

"1 Timothy 2:4
desires ALL MEN to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth."

It is because of our will that it does not happen. Not because God does not get around to it or something silly like that. Predestination to hell is false and that is what this false theology implies.

Blessings

[ICTHUS]

Thessalonian, please see the site I provided in the other thread (and know that I do not endorse all of its content!)

In addition, you posit that Unconditional Election is a heresy. I would argue otherwise.

Hear the Word of the Lord

Romans 8:28-31

28And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him,[j] who[k] have been called according to his purpose. 29For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the likeness of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30And those he predestined, he also called; those he called, he also justified; those he justified, he also glorified.

Now, as to how this passage supports unconditional election - notice the use of personal pronouns: "God works for the good of [i]those who[/i] love him". "For [i]those[/i] God foreknew, he also predestined..."

So, here we have God foreknowing persons. A person advocating conditional election might posit that God foreknows peoples [i]choices. [/i] Yet, this is untenable, since it is clear from the passage that God foreknows [i]persons[/i] as His, and their salvation occurs as a result of His foreknowledge and predestination of them.

Indeed, Unconditional Election was taught by two of the most famous Doctors of your Church.

"God elected believers; [b]but He chose them that they might be so[/b], [i]not because they were already so[/i]...[b]Neither are we called because we believed, but that we may believe[/b]; and by that calling which is without repentance it is effected and carried through that we should believe."

- St. Augustine Treatise On The Predestination of the Saints Chap. 38

Please excuse the lengthy quotation.

The following is from St. Thomas Aquinas' [i]Summa Theologica[/i]

[quote]Whether the foreknowledge of merits is the cause of predestination?

Objection 1. It seems that foreknowledge of merits is the cause of predestination. For the Apostle says (Rm. 8:29): "Whom He foreknew, He also predestined." Again a gloss of Ambrose on Rm. 9:15: "I will have mercy upon whom I will have mercy" says: "I will give mercy to him who, I foresee, will turn to Me with his whole heart." Therefore it seems the foreknowledge of merits is the cause of predestination.

Objection 2. Further, Divine predestination includes the divine will, which by no means can be irrational; since predestination is "the purpose to have mercy," as Augustine says (De Praed. Sanct. ii, 17). But there can be no other reason for predestination than the foreknowledge of merits. Therefore it must be the cause of reason of predestination.

Objection 3. Further, "There is no injustice in God" (Rm. 9:14). Now it would seem unjust that unequal things be given to equals. But all men are equal as regards both nature and original sin; and inequality in them arises from the merits or demerits of their actions. Therefore God does not prepare unequal things for men by predestinating and reprobating, unless through the foreknowledge of their merits and demerits.

On the contrary, The Apostle says (Titus 3:5): "Not by works of justice which we have done, but according to His mercy He saved us." But as He saved us, so He predestined that we should be saved. Therefore, foreknowledge of merits is not the cause or reason of predestination.

I answer that, Since predestination includes will, as was said above (4), the reason of predestination must be sought for in the same way as was the reason of the will of God. Now it was shown above (19, 5), that we cannot assign any cause of the divine will on the part of the act of willing; but a reason can be found on the part of the things willed; inasmuch as God wills one thing on account of something else. Wherefore nobody has been so insane as to say that merit is the cause of divine predestination as regards the act of the predestinator. But this is the question, whether, as regards the effect, predestination has any cause; or what comes to the same thing, whether God pre-ordained that He would give the effect of predestination to anyone on account of any merits.

Accordingly there were some who held that the effect of predestination was pre-ordained for some on account of pre-existing merits in a former life. This was the opinion of Origen, who thought that the souls of men were created in the beginning, and according to the diversity of their works different states were assigned to them in this world when united with the body. The Apostle, however, rebuts this opinion where he says (Rm. 9:11,12): "For when they were not yet born, nor had done any good or evil . . . not of works, but of Him that calleth, it was said of her: The elder shall serve the younger."

Others said that pre-existing merits in this life are the reason and cause of the effect of predestination. For the Pelagians taught that the beginning of doing well came from us; and the consummaion from God: so that it came about that the effect of predestination was granted to one, and not to another, because the one made a beginning by preparing, whereas the other did not. But against this we have the saying of the Apostle (2 Cor. 3:5), that "we are not sufficient to think anything of ourselves as of ourselves." Now no principle of action can be imagined previous to the act of thinking. Wherefore it cannot be said that anything begun in us can be the reason of the effect of predestination.

And so others said that merits following the effect of predestination are the reason of predestination; giving us to understand that God gives grace to a person, and pre-ordains that He will give it, because He knows beforehand that He will make good use of that grace, as if a king were to give a horse to a soldier because he knows he will make good use of it. But these seem to have drawn a distinction between that which flows from grace, and that which flows from free will, as if the same thing cannot come from both. It is, however, manifest that what is of grace is the effect of predestination; and this cannot be considered as the reason of predestination, since it is contained in the notion of predestination. Therefore, if anything else in us be the reason of predestination, it will outside the effect of predestination. Now there is no distinction between what flows from free will, and what is of predestination; as there is not distinction between what flows from a secondary cause and from a first cause. For the providence of God produces effects through the operation of secondary causes, as was above shown (22, 3). Wherefore, that which flows from free-will is also of predestination. We must say, therefore, that the effect of predestination may be considered in a twofold light--in one way, in particular; and thus there is no reason why one effect of predestination should not be the reason or cause of another; a subsequent effect being the reason of a previous effect, as its final cause; and the previous effect being the reason of the subsequent as its meritorious cause, which is reduced to the disposition of the matter. Thus we might say that God pre-ordained to give glory on account of merit, and that He pre-ordained to give grace to merit glory. In another way, the effect of predestination may be considered in general. Thus, it is impossible that the whole of the effect of predestination in general should have any cause as coming from us; because whatsoever is in man disposing him towards salvation, is all included under the effect of predestination; even the preparation for grace. For neither does this happen otherwise than by divine help, according to the prophet Jeremias (Lam. 5:21): "convert us, O Lord, to Thee, and we shall be converted." Yet predestination has in this way, in regard to its effect, the goodness of God for its reason; towards which the whole effect of predestination is directed as to an end; and from which it proceeds, as from its first moving principle.

Reply to Objection 1. The use of grace foreknown by God is not the cause of conferring grace, except after the manner of a final cause; as was explained above.

Reply to Objection 2. Predestination has its foundation in the goodness of God as regards its effects in general. Considered in its particular effects, however, one effect is the reason of another; as already stated.

Reply to Objection 3. The reason for the predestination of some, and reprobation of others, must be sought for in the goodness of God. Thus He is said to have made all things through His goodness, so that the divine goodness might be represented in things. Now it is necessary that God's goodness, which in itself is one and undivided, should be manifested in many ways in His creation; because creatures in themselves cannot attain to the simplicity of God. Thus it is that for the completion of the universe there are required different grades of being; some of which hold a high and some a low place in the universe. That this multiformity of grades may be preserved in things, God allows some evils, lest many good things should never happen, as was said above (22, 2). Let us then consider the whole of the human race, as we consider the whole universe. God wills to manifest His goodness in men; in respect to those whom He predestines, by means of His mercy, as sparing them; and in respect of others, whom he reprobates, by means of His justice, in punishing them. This is the reason why God elects some and rejects others. To this the Apostle refers, saying (Rm. 9:22,23): "What if God, willing to show His wrath [that is, the vengeance of His justice], and to make His power known, endured [that is, permitted] with much patience vessels of wrath, fitted for destruction; that He might show the riches of His glory on the vessels of mercy, which He hath prepared unto glory" and (2 Tim. 2:20): "But in a great house there are not only vessels of gold and silver; but also of wood and of earth; and some, indeed, unto honor, but some unto dishonor." Yet why He chooses some for glory, and reprobates others, has no reason, except the divine will. Whence Augustine says (Tract. xxvi. in Joan.): "Why He draws one, and another He draws not, seek not to judge, if thou dost not wish to err." Thus too, in the things of nature, a reason can be assigned, since primary matter is altogether uniform, why one part of it was fashioned by God from the beginning under the form of fire, another under the form of earth, that there might be a diversity of species in things of nature. Yet why this particular part of matter is under this particular form, and that under another, depends upon the simple will of God; as from the simple will of the artificer it depends that this stone is in part of the wall, and that in another; although the plan requires that some stones should be in this place, and some in that place. Neither on this account can there be said to be injustice in God, if He prepares unequal lots for not unequal things. This would be altogether contrary to the notion of justice, if the effect of predestination were granted as a debt, and not gratuitously. In things which are given gratuitously, a person can give more or less, just as he pleases (provided he deprives nobody of his due), without any infringement of justice. This is what the master of the house said: "Take what is thine, and go thy way. Is it not lawful for me to do what I will?" (Mt. 20:14,15). [/quote]

Thessalonian, you live up to your name. Recall that the Thessalonians chased St. Paul out of Thessalonica with his Gospel, and refused to read the Holy Scriptures with the kind of attentiveness they demand. You would do well to learn from the example of the Bereans, who were more noble than the Thessalonians.

[thessalonian]

I'm not against predestination. Just predestination to hell and to the idea that God simply elects some and not others, denying his grace to those who go to hell. I would much rather believe that man has the ability by his will to reject that grace which would bring him to eternal glory that God desires for him. Thus he condemns himself. This is much more scripturally palatable with the verses I have quoted.

I take your comment about the thessalonians with the same significance as your comment about whether Catholics are Christian. Thanks for your opinion but you hardly know me and my attention to scripture. But of course I am a Catholic and so must be stupid with regard to them since our pope forbids bible reading. Didn't you know that. All your Protestant books say so. I do like how rather than answer the verses I post you go off to some other verse you think I have no answer for. All I have time for right now. More later.

Edited December 12, 2004 by thessalonian

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Dec 11 2004, 07:36 PM'] I'm not against predestination.  Just predestination to hell.

[/quote]
If people are predestined to Heaven, then everyone else forms the 'massa damnata' - You can't have single predestination - it's logically impossible if the number of the Elect is fixed from all eternity in the Book of Life - the ones who are not in the Book must be the reprobate. Stop trying to have your cake and eat it too.

(Edit) I apologize to anyone who saw what I just wrote to Thessalonian.

Edited December 12, 2004 by ICTHUS

[thessalonian]

What did you write icky? It wasn't nice I guess. I forgive you for whatever it was.

Not trying to have my cake and eat it too. Just trying to say that God doesn't desire all men to be saved but withhold his grace from some of them. The sun shines on the good and the bad. ALL men recieve his grace such that if they end up in hell it is not his fault. They simply do not acknowledge it and so beaver dam themselves. The theif on the left had God's grace sitting in it's infnity right next to him. He most certainly had access to it. But rather than to be raised up by it he asked Christ to lower him down. He chose his eternity. God did not choose it for him and he had no excuse. While the other theif was raised up by God's grace. Both had access to it. One embraced it. The other rejected it. Jesus was not to blame.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='thessalonian' date='Dec 11 2004, 10:58 PM']

[/quote]
[quote]What did you write icky?  It wasn't nice I guess.  I forgive you for whatever it was. [/quote] Thanks

[quote]Not trying to have my cake and eat it too.  Just trying to say that God doesn't desire all men to be saved but withhold his grace from some of them.  The sun shines on the good and the bad.  ALL men recieve his grace such that if they end up in hell it is not his fault.  They simply do not acknowledge it and so beaver dam themselves.  The theif on the left had God's grace sitting in it's infnity right next to him.   He most certainly had access to it.  But rather than to be raised up by it he asked Christ to lower him down.   He chose his eternity.  God did not choose it for him and he had no excuse.  While the other theif was raised up by God's grace.  Both had access to it.  One embraced it.  The other rejected it.  Jesus was not to blame.[/quote] In light of this position, how do you make sense of "Jacob and Esau" in Romans 9?

Also, did you read the website I provided in the other thread?

Edited December 12, 2004 by ICTHUS

[ICTHUS]

Also, you said in the title of this thread that Unconditional Election is nonsense. I can see, perhaps, your difficulty with limited atonement, but in light of what I illustrated above, why do you have difficulty with Unconditional Election? (Especially since St. Augustine and St. Thomas refuted objections to it so well)

[Justified Saint]

[quote]I'm not against predestination. Just predestination to hell and to the idea that God simply elects some and not others, denying his grace to those who go to hell.[/quote]

Afterall, doesn't the text of scripture tell us that God is the "impartial" judge? Not so if one is under the tyranny of Calvinism.

Truly, what love is this?

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Justified Saint' date='Dec 12 2004, 04:08 PM']


[/quote]
[quote]Afterall, doesn't the text of scripture tell us that God is the "impartial" judge?  Not so if one is under the tyranny of Calvinism.[/quote] "For I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy" seems clear enough to me.

[quote]Truly, what love is this?[/quote] The love that saves all who wish to be saved, and persevere, of course. Would you prefer if God had left us all dead in our sins and not sent His Son?

[Justified Saint]

[quote]"For I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy" seems clear enough to me.[/quote]

Yes, it is clear and should not be erroneously construed to mean a God who randomly and arbitrarily favors some over others.


[quote]The love that saves all who wish to be saved, and persevere, of course. Would you prefer if God had left us all dead in our sins and not sent His Son?[/quote]

But man has no wish to be saved, he is "totally depraved". God has ordained him to be so. The creature does not love the creator, it is a fake and artifical love. Love is always an act of will and when you take the will away love can't exist.

[ICTHUS]

[quote]Yes, it is clear and should not be erroneously construed to mean a God who randomly and arbitrarily favors some over others.   [/quote] Of course, and I never said this was how I construed it. God is not random in election, nor is He arbitrary. He elects according to His own good pleasure and purpose in Christ Jesus, before the foundation of the world.

[quote]But man has no wish to be saved, he is "totally depraved".  God has ordained him to be so.[/quote] No, he (Adam, man's covenant head) fell into sin of his own will. [quote]The creature does not love the creator, it is a fake and artifical love.  Love is always an act of will and when you take the will away love can't exist.[/quote] No - I dont know how else to say this, but our love is not coerced. We will to love God, but only because God first breaks our hearts of stone into a million pieces and gives us hearts of flesh. As we read in the WCF

[quote]III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, hath wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation; so as a natural man, being altogether averse from that good, and dead in sin, is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.

IV. When God converts a sinner and translates him into the state of grace, he freeth him from his natural bondage under sin, and, by his grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good; yet so as that, by reason of his remaining corruption, he doth not perfectly, nor only, will that which is good, but doth also will that which is evil.[/quote]

In regeneration, then, God [i]changes our wills[/i] - he interferes with the natural curse brought down on Adam, and gives us new hearts with which to love Him.

Edited December 12, 2004 by ICTHUS