hyperdulia again Posted December 21, 2004 Author Share Posted December 21, 2004 In which case what exactly was the Temptation of Christ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 The would have the temptation to sin I believe, but they wouldn't have the temptation from concupiscence. Adam and Eve were tempted to sin, and they were without concupiscence. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 [quote name='hyperdulia again' date='Dec 20 2004, 10:26 PM'] Now we are making headway. Neither suffered from the inclinaton to sin, right? Does one have to be inclined towards what Satan tepts us with? I am not particularly inclined towards murder, but recently the temptation to the act has made its presence felt. Marry and CChrist can't have strggled to resist temptation, but why can they not have been tempted? Is homosexuality the only sin we feel this way about or have we decided that they were tempted with nothing by no one? [/quote] Temptation, in and of itself, implies no concupiscential movement of the will. Christ's human will was perfectly aligned to the Divine Will, and therefore His "temptation" involved no volitional defects. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted December 21, 2004 Author Share Posted December 21, 2004 OK I get it. I'm wrong and the Church is right. See how simple that is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 I like the idea that homosexuality is caused by martians! :alien: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted December 21, 2004 Author Share Posted December 21, 2004 [quote name='Aluigi' date='Dec 21 2004, 12:31 AM'] I like the idea that homosexuality is caused by martians! :alien: [/quote] There's a very frightening bioethics group that actually does believe homosexuality is caused by aliens--well kinda. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oik Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 Okay, hyper, I see what you mean by my drawing Sarced names into the fray. My only attempt was to show that if homosexuality in the way we have been discussing (claiming the identity, not fostering the actions) is "innate" or "caused" then it would be able to be applied to all. This was obviously a bad way to go, as it seems that my point was not understood. Raelly, I just want to know how one can claim an identity that is contrary to the nature of Christ and still be faithful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oik Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 We are all sinners. I am not pointing anyone out. I want to know, though, how one can turn ones back on something and at the same time claim that which one has abandoned. Sincerely want and answer, not an arguement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 The homosexual condition is not an ontological reality, it is instead a privation of the good in the will of the creature, and therefore it is not, nor can it be, a basis for personal identity. As a disordered inclination resulting from the fall of man, it has its source in the defective will of the creature afflicted with it. Clearly, this disordered inclination, like all disordered inclinations, is not in itself a sin, but it must always be borne in mind that ". . . it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder." [CDF Instruction [u]Homosexualitatis Problema[/u], no. 3] One must not try to make this pathological condition into a basis for [i]rights[/i] within law, because no one has a [i]right[/i] to commit sinful acts. God bless, Todd Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oik Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 [quote]...therefore it is not, nor can it be, a basis for personal identity[/quote] Okay, I follow this and I agree. [quote]this disordered inclination, like all disordered inclinations, is not in itself a sin, but it must always be borne in mind that ". . . it is a more or less strong tendency ordered toward an intrinsic moral evil; and thus the inclination itself must be seen as an objective disorder."[/quote] I agree here too. So my question is then, how can one claim to be homosexual when they agree with what you have said. Clearly one can say "I struglle with homosexuality." However, to say that one is a non-praciticing homosexual seems to me to be in direct conflict with what you are saying here. This is what I need to be cleared up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 [quote name='Oik' date='Dec 21 2004, 12:26 PM']Okay, I follow this and I agree. I agree here too. So my question is then, how can one claim to be homosexual when they agree with what you have said.[/quote] There is no such thing as [i]being[/i] homosexual. The homosexual condition is a disorder of the will, and so it is not a state of being. Instead, it is a negation of the good, and so those that claim to [i]be[/i] homosexual are simply misguided. [quote name='Oik' date='Dec 21 2004, 12:26 PM']Clearly one can say "I struglle with homosexuality." However, to say that one is a non-praciticing homosexual seems to me to be in direct conflict with what you are saying here. This is what I need to be cleared up.[/quote] Correct. The homosexual inclination is not an ontological category; therefore, no one [i]is[/i] homosexual. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 The Church has defined homosexuality in the Catechism as "intrinsically disordered" (not just the acts, but the very state of same-sex attraction). Our Lord and Our Lady cannot have an intrinsically disordered condition. They would not have same-sex sexual attraction, and therefore could not even be tempted in this regard. I rest my case. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Apotheoun Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 [quote name='Socrates' date='Dec 21 2004, 12:50 PM'] The Church has defined homosexuality in the Catechism as "intrinsically disordered" (not just the acts, but the very state of same-sex attraction). Our Lord and Our Lady cannot have an intrinsically disordered condition. They would not have same-sex sexual attraction, and therefore could not even be tempted in this regard. I rest my case. [/quote] Agreed, because Jesus and Mary had no disordered inclinations at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oik Posted December 21, 2004 Share Posted December 21, 2004 [quote]Agreed, because Jesus and Mary had no disordered inclinations at all.[/quote] Agreed. Again, I apologise if my comment about our Lord and the Blessed Virgin was taken wrong or misread. [quote]The Church has defined homosexuality in the Catechism as "intrinsically disordered" (not just the acts, but the very state of same-sex attraction). Our Lord and Our Lady cannot have an intrinsically disordered condition. They would not have same-sex sexual attraction, and therefore could not even be tempted in this regard. I rest my case. [/quote] Agreed. [quote]There is no such thing as being homosexual. The homosexual condition is a disorder of the will, and so it is not a state of being. Instead, it is a negation of the good, and so those that claim to be homosexual are simply misguided.[/quote] Agreed. [quote]The homosexual inclination is not an ontological category; therefore, no one is homosexual.[/quote] Agreed. I understand the reasoning hear. I think though, the people (who claim to be homosexual) that I deal with will (unfortunatly) need a more concise and to the point explanation. Thanks. Hyoer, still waiting to hear from you. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted December 22, 2004 Author Share Posted December 22, 2004 I am a homosexual. I am an orthodox Catholic. We are not debating me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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