This isn't ok.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='I Choose to Be Holy' date='Dec 17 2004, 10:41 PM'] So um...how do u explain those kids that even from childhood don't want to go do the "boy" stuff and want to sit at home and play dolls and such despite all their other siblings doing it?  just curious cuz i don't know. [/quote]
It's a disorder, and it can be corrected. The problem is acknowledging that it is a disorder. Alcoholics don't think they are sick. In this permissive culture, gays may not realize that their choice will have a profoundly negative impact on them. Like going to Hell.

Edited December 18, 2004 by toledo_jesus

[I Choose to Be Holy]

yes i agree with your first 3 sentences. but i still am unsure about the rest.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='I Choose to Be Holy' date='Dec 17 2004, 10:59 PM'] yes i agree with your first 3 sentences. but i still am unsure about the rest. [/quote]
well, they won't go to Hell for being gay. Only for acting on it.

[hyperdulia again]

Assuming, like with all objectively mortal sins, that the person committing the act is culpabe for it.

[jasJis]

[quote name='I Choose to Be Holy' date='Dec 17 2004, 09:41 PM'] So um...how do u explain those kids that even from childhood don't want to go do the "boy" stuff and want to sit at home and play dolls and such despite all their other siblings doing it? just curious cuz i don't know. [/quote]
That's just societal sterotyping for the majority. Though there may be some who may be born with genetics programmed with homosexuality, you cannot ignore societal influence. In the 60's and 70's when I was young, you didn't have people running around calling boys 'gay' because they didn't like football or can't fix their car. We've always had men who were painters, sculptors, actors, florists, and chefs who wanted to do that when they were kids. How helpful do you think it is for parents to label their son 'gay' when he wants to cook dinner at the age of 12 instead of palying football? Real men [u]can[/u] eat quiche [b]and make it too[/b].

[cmotherofpirl]

AMEN Jas.

We used to let men have a full range of activities and still be men.

We have also forgotten or re-labelled that period of teenage years when your best buddy was someone of the sex - your best FRIEND. It didn't mean you were homosexual, it meant your were normal.

[Guest Aluigi]

part of the developemental disorder is that they don't have enough acceptance amoung peers of their own sex as a young kid. if they're all playin with dolls and not good at sports, they get rejected by the other boys at a time when they naturally need to have friends who are boys like them (you know, usually the boys are friends with the boys while the girls have cooties). the natural desire for friends who are boys stays there, and right into puberty where then it turns to a sexual desire.

there are many other factors including bad relationships with father, sexual abuse, and some other things. there are none born "genetically programmed" i'm sure of it. however, the developemental disorder really effects the chemical balances in their brain and such so it's also not like something that a person can just choose to leave. they usually need good psychologists and even then only 1/3 actually develop sexual feelings for the opposite sex, and 1/3 simply loose their sexual feelings for the same sex but never develop any for the opposite sex, and 1/3 simply go to attempt to live chaste lives (i'm pretty sure that last 1/3 also includes the people that pretend to develop attraction to the opposite sex and then really screw themselves up)

it depends on how long you've been into the lifestyle, how much homosexual sex you've had, and how deep the wounds that caused it originally are.

[I Choose to Be Holy]

No no no I don't mean that doing the un stereotypical boy things makes a person gay. I was thinking of a specific example where my next door neighbor had 3 boys and raised them all the same, yet from age 5 one of them never wanted to go work outside, and when they went skating he twirled around while the other 2 boys played hockey...and he is now like 25 and openly gay. I was curious what your takes were on stuff like that.

Also, I don't think someone will necessarily go to hell for actively being gay. Noone can judge God's mercy...but if we assume it is a mortal sin, then he or she would only go to hell persay if he was aware that it was a sin and did it anyway.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Dec 18 2004, 10:34 AM'] That's just societal sterotyping for the majority. Though there may be some who may be born with genetics programmed with homosexuality, you cannot ignore societal influence. In the 60's and 70's when I was young, you didn't have people running around calling boys 'gay' because they didn't like football or can't fix their car. We've always had men who were painters, sculptors, actors, florists, and chefs who wanted to do that when they were kids. How helpful do you think it is for parents to label their son 'gay' when he wants to cook dinner at the age of 12 instead of palying football? Real men [u]can[/u] eat quiche [b]and make it too[/b]. [/quote]
Same sex attraction is not genetic. Any who claim it is, are simply wrong. It may not be a choice for some because it is hard to pick what we are attracted to... it is something we develop at a young age, and it is modified throughout our life.

Attraction is a learned response to a physical appearence.

Gender definition at a young age is very important.

I ask people to read and meditate on the article that I posted above.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote name='I Choose to Be Holy' date='Dec 19 2004, 12:04 AM'] No no no I don't mean that doing the un stereotypical boy things makes a person gay.  I was thinking of a specific example where my next door neighbor had 3 boys and raised them all the same, yet from age 5 one of them never wanted to go work outside, and when they went skating he twirled around while the other 2 boys played hockey...and he is now like 25 and openly gay.  I was curious what your takes were on stuff like that.

Also, I don't think someone will necessarily go to hell for actively being gay.  Noone can judge God's mercy...but if we assume it is a mortal sin, then he or she would only go to hell persay if he was aware that it was a sin and did it anyway. [/quote]
Many factors come into play, not just how they are raised by their parents... peers, idols, etc... Please read the article.

People who are practicing homosexuals, fornicators, idolators, etc... will not inherit the Kingdom of God (1 Cor. 6). It's black and white.... provided that they know that they are going against God's Commandments... then they will be judged by what is written on their hearts... their conscience will convict them or vindicate them.

There is a Gehenna (Lake of Fire), and more people will go to Gehenna than will go to Heaven. These are facts written in the bible. The gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, the gate is narrow that leads to life.

[b]Sirach 16:12[/b]
Great as his mercy is his punishment; he judges men, each according to his deeds.

[b]Sirach 5:5[/b]
Of forgiveness be not overconfident, adding sin upon sin.
[b]6 [/b]Say not: "Great is his mercy; my many sins he will forgive."
[b]7 [/b]For mercy and anger alike are with him; upon the wicked alights his wrath.
[b]8 [/b]Delay not your conversion to the LORD, put it not off from day to day;
[b]9 [/b]For suddenly his wrath flames forth; at the time of vengeance, you will be destroyed.


[b]1 Corin. 6:9 [/b]
Do you not know that the unjust will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators nor idolaters nor adulterers nor boy prostitutes nor practicing homosexuals.

[b]1 Tim 1:5 [/b]
The aim of this instruction is love from a pure heart, a good conscience, and a sincere faith.
[b]6 [/b]Some people have deviated from these and turned to meaningless talk,
[b]7 [/b]wanting to be teachers of the law, but without understanding either what they are saying or what they assert with such assurance.
[b]8 [/b]We know that the law is good, provided that one uses it as law,
[b]9 [/b]with the understanding that law is meant not for a righteous person but for the lawless and unruly, the godless and sinful, the unholy and profane, those who kill their fathers or mothers, murderers,
[b]10 [/b]the unchaste, practicing homosexuals, kidnapers, liars, perjurers, and whatever else is opposed to sound teaching,
[b]11 [/b]according to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, with which I have been entrusted.


[b]St. Matt 16:27[/b] [color=red]For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then he will repay everyone according to his conduct. [/color]

[b]2 Corin 11:15[/b]
So it is not strange that his ministers also masquerade as ministers of righteousness. Their end will correspond to their deeds.

[b]St. John 3:19[/b]
[color=red]And this is the verdict, that the light came into the world, but people preferred darkness to light, because their works were evil. [/color]
[b]20 [/b][color=red]For everyone who does wicked things hates the light and does not come toward the light, so that his works might not be exposed. [/color]
[b]21 [/b][color=red]But whoever lives the truth comes to the light, so that his works may be clearly seen as done in God. [/color]


[b]Romans 2:14 [/b]
For when the Gentiles who do not have the law by nature observe the prescriptions of the law, they are a law for themselves even though they do not have the law.
[b]15 [/b]They show that the [b]demands of the law are written in their hearts, while their conscience also bears witness and their conflicting thoughts accuse or even defend them [/b]


[b]St. Matt 7:13 [/b]
"[color=red]Enter through the narrow gate; for the gate is wide and the road broad that leads to destruction, and those who enter through it are many. [/color]
[b]14 [/b][color=red]How narrow the gate and constricted the road that leads to life. And those who find it are few. [/color]




God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited December 19, 2004 by ironmonk

[hyperdulia again]

I really dn't think sexual orientation is decided by genes in any kind of determinist way--nonetheless it is beyond annoyng when people make absolute statements about things that simply are not absolute.

Homosexuality is genetic= (usually) someone propogating gay rights or some other modernist vaguery
Homosexuality is not genetic=(almost always) someone who on a whole range of issues takes basically conservative positions and tries to raise them to the level of dogmatic teaching. Either by directly saying so or by suggesting so.

I believe..., but the Church does not require you to believe...=someone propogating church teaching.

[Oik]

Hyper, in our culture, we want to protect others (and our selves from harm).

As Catholics, we don't advocate hatred.

However, we will all be judged according to whether or not we have led others to Christ or a way from Christ.

To say "I believe, but the Church does not require you to believe" is relativism and that is not compatible.

Jesus said, "I am the Bread of Life."

We must speak authoritativly and as Saint Paul says, be willing to give an count of our Faith.

Our Faith teaches that engauging in the Homosexual act is a sin.

Our Faith also teaches that lust is a sin.

Actively entaining the idea of having sex with someone whom you are not married to, whether they are the same or opposite of your sex, is sinful.

[Oik]

Furthermore, I am still confused how one can identify oneself as being gay and not act on it.

Your identity is Christ.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='Oik' date='Dec 20 2004, 03:13 AM'] Hyper, in our culture, we want to protect others (and our selves from harm).

As Catholics, we don't advocate hatred.

However, we will all be judged according to whether or not we have led others to Christ or a way from Christ.

To say "I believe, but the Church does not require you to believe" is relativism and that is not compatible.

Jesus said, "I am the Bread of Life."

We must speak authoritativly and as Saint Paul says, be willing to give an count of our Faith.

Our Faith teaches that engauging in the Homosexual act is a sin.

Our Faith also teaches that lust is a sin.

Actively entaining the idea of having sex with someone whom you are not married to, whether they are the same or opposite of your sex, is sinful. [/quote]
I think what Hyper meant by "I believe... but the Church does not require...." is that the Church does not require us to hold one set of beliefs about what causes same sex attractions. He holds a belief about what causes it but no one is required to believe what he thinks or what anyone else thinks causes it.

Hyper holds all that the Church teaches to be true and sacred, no doubt about that.

As for how someone can identify themselves as gay and not act on it, I'd say that requires alot of strength of will and even more than that Grace from God. While in our general terminology the word seems to indicate sexually active homosexuals and not those striving to be celibate we can't always be too quick to "jump the gun" when we see the term used.

[hyperdulia again]

'To say "I believe, but the Church does not require you to believe" is relativism and that is not compatible.'

The above is limited to the conversation at hand, One can believe that homosexuality is caused by martians, the Church does not require anyone else to believe that it is and other than from a mental health standpoint she is not concerned a/b the first person's belief. The Church does not request or encourage, but commands her children to not engage in sexual activty outside of marriage. Marriage is an impossibility for two persons of the same sex.

Now regarding your question on my personal life, I am simply not engaging in any such convo on this forum--it tends to lead to hurt feelings.

My identity is a sinner, foul, fallen, unlovable, but still loved by the One Who Is Love.