XIX Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 Do you fold your hands even if you have four aces? :ph34r: ba-dump ksssssssshhhhhhhhhhhh sorry... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karin Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 lol i usually am not playing poker during the Our Father... silly Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 [quote name='XIX' date='Dec 11 2004, 10:11 AM'] Do you fold your hands even if you have four aces? [/quote] Heavens NO! I up the bet... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 (edited) The rubrics (Latin, meaning "red." Prayers are written in black, gestures in red) instruct the priest to hold his hands in the orans position during the Lord's Prayer. Therefore, it is wrong for a priest to hold hands during the Our Father. The Sign of Peace comes after the Lord's Prayer. If you've already been holding hands with someone (an intimate gesture) why would you then shake his hand? (It puts the human gestures out of a logical sequence, so to speak.) Hand-shaking is common among all people of goodwill. Handholding is reserved for those who are more intimately acquainted. That's my take. But how about what the Vatican has said? [color=purple][u][i][b]Inaestimabile Donum[/b][/i][/u] - foreward [url="http://www.cin.org/vatcong/donum.html"]http://www.cin.org/vatcong/donum.html[/url] Prepared by the Sacred Congregation for the Sacraments and Divine Worship Approved and Confirmed by His Holiness Pope John Paul II April 17, [b]1980[/b] ...The [i]faithful have a right to a true Liturgy[/i], which means [b]the Liturgy desired and laid down by the Church[/b], which has in fact indicated where adaptations may be made as called for by pastoral requirements in different places or by different groups of people. [b]Undue experimentation, changes and creativity bewilder the faithful[/b]... The Second Vatican Council's admonition in this regard must be remembered: [b]"No person, even if he be a priest, may add, remove or change anything in the Liturgy on his own authority."[/b] And Paul VI of venerable memory stated that: "Anyone who takes advantage of the reform to indulge in arbitrary experiments is wasting energy and offending the ecclesial sense."[/color] My emphasis added... Hi, Everybody!!!! :wave: Just thought I'd pop in to say h'llo! :wub: I'm procrastinating. I should be painting my bedroom ceiling... Pax Christi. <>< Edited December 11, 2004 by Anna Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 interesting. I talked to my priest about this. He said that it is not required and is a liturgical innovation that has taken root in the last 20 or so years. He said that he didn't really mind it because it's pretty much meaningless as we're joined BY OUR PRAYERS. However...he expressed disapproval at the need for people to form a 'chain' all through the church. you know, when the pews have to link up and all. It forms a human snake and I guess people think the prayer won't work if you don't hold hands. my priest finds this distracts from the prayer somewhat. Anyway, I recently stopped holding hands because it annoys me when people do that little raise at the "for the kingdom and the power and the glory..." part. I mean it really annoys me. I can't stand sanctimonious lay people. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 Here's the thing... I am not a big hand holder either, but I find it awkward to make it obvious that I'm not holding hands in one moment and then in the next offer a sign of peace... It's like I'm creating hostility only to rectify it two minutes later... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Theoketos Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 [quote name='p0lar_bear' date='Dec 11 2004, 02:50 AM'] Technically, it is not forbidden for the faithful to hold hands during the Our Father. It cannot replace the Sign of Peace and the priest cannot initiate it. Because it is not contrary to the rubrics, canon law, or any other directives, there is nothing preventing the faithful from doing it of their own initiative. With all due respect to Mr. Donovan, he goes further than the Church has on this issue. [/quote] Yep Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anna Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Dec 11 2004, 01:19 PM'] Here's the thing... I am not a big hand holder either, but I find it awkward to make it obvious that I'm not holding hands in one moment and then in the next offer a sign of peace... It's like I'm creating hostility only to rectify it two minutes later... [/quote] That's what makes this gesture so problematic for many worshippers. It's very invasive. Someone will backslap you on the arm and grab your hand and lift and pull on it according to his wishes, and if you don't want to go along, you're somehow being un-Christian. It takes the focus off the Father, to whom the prayer is being offered, and places the focus on the "our" ~ it's all about us, we, me, I...doncha know... People become quite irate if it's suggested that perhaps they not do this, or at least not force their neighbors into it! Thank heavens, my family takes up an entire pew. None of us holds hands during the Our Father, though sometimes my 6 year old tries, in imitation of some of those around him. I let him know that I'll hold his hand crossing the parking lot after Mass! Likewise, he's asked if he can go up for a blessing at Communion time, since he isn't old enough to receive Holy Communion. Now where did he learn that? Must be in kindergarten, because it is nothing I'd ever have suggested! Recently, I had to explain that, no, he couldn't go up this time, because we were on the side of the Church where an extraordinary minister of Holy Communion was distributing Communion. I explained that all these people are commissioned to do is to give Holy Communion. They have no authority in the Church to give blessings during the Mass. That is the job of a priest or a deacon. My six year old was fine with that. Next Mass we attended, he asked if he could go up and receive a blessing from Father!!! (I allowed it, but I would rather have him stay in his pew and adore Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament. It's that "me thing" again. It is such a struggle to remain focused on Christ! Definitely more catechesis needed...) Sorry for the thread hijack... Still procrastinating... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myduwigd Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Dec 11 2004, 07:22 AM'] Your friend is quite right. It is not part of the Mass. Adding it is the same as adding any other personal activity to Mass; like if I decided to spin in circles or do a waltz while we sing hymns. [/quote] How is anyone supposed to grow if they cant change? God doesnt wan tus to stay in one spot and not change or add things (that arent completely against the church.) I think that holding hands is perfectly fine, its just not that big of a deal. I think that it adds a sense of family and physicall unity. No, it doesnt replace the eucharist or the sign of peace, but it adds to it. God made us as creative beings, i dont think that he wants us to quench that in the mass. some people may find true joyin strictly following the order of the mass, but what about those people who love a little more of a different mass? Every church is going to be different merely from the fact that they are different churches with different people in them. DO you want all christian to be the same? Our differences make us beautiful and free. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 The Our Father is not supposed to be a time of family or unity. It is suppose to be time between us and God. Bishops have recognized this over and over again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
myduwigd Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 [quote name='Anna' date='Dec 11 2004, 11:38 AM'] It takes the focus off the Father, to whom the prayer is being offered, and places the focus on the "our" ~ it's all about us, we, me, I...doncha know... [/quote] "When two or more are gathered here i am present"; GOd is present in the praise of his people. What about the body of Christ being us? Personally, I find it easier to focus on the Our Father while holding hands. Yes, holding hands is a personal thing, whats wrong with that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 You are using that verse out of context. Don't worry, a lot of people do. You may find it easier to focus on the Our Father, but one of the reasons we are Catholic is that it is not all "personally" it is how the Church desires us to do things. Protestants get to do things "personally" that is, however they want with no consequence. The greeting of peace is meant for us to interact with other parishoners during the mass, and there are usually gatherings after mass at a lot of churches, this is also the place for fellowship. The Our Father during the mass was not given with the intent of fellowship in mind. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 [quote name='myduwigd' date='Dec 11 2004, 01:51 PM'] How is anyone supposed to grow if they cant change? God doesnt wan tus to stay in one spot and not change or add things (that arent completely against the church.) I think that holding hands is perfectly fine, its just not that big of a deal. I think that it adds a sense of family and physicall unity. No, it doesnt replace the eucharist or the sign of peace, but it adds to it. God made us as creative beings, i dont think that he wants us to quench that in the mass. some people may find true joyin strictly following the order of the mass, but what about those people who love a little more of a different mass? Every church is going to be different merely from the fact that they are different churches with different people in them. DO you want all christian to be the same? Our differences make us beautiful and free. [/quote] Wrong. The Mass isn't a plant we are growing, it is a ritual to worship God. It is not something that belongs to to people to be altered at will, it is not where we go to be creative and make ourselves all touchy feely happy. All Catholic Masses within the Latin rite in a given country are SUPPOSED to be the same - that is why there is a document called the GIRM which outlines who does what when and why. You should be all to go from parish to parish and diocese to diocese and find THe Mass celebrated the SAME WAY! [url="http://www.diopitt.org/socialconcerns/girmmainpage.htm"]http://www.diopitt.org/socialconcerns/girmmainpage.htm[/url] click on the pdf file. Do your own thing creativity is found in protestant or evangelical groups - not the Catholic Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mexmickey Posted January 2, 2005 Author Share Posted January 2, 2005 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Dec 11 2004, 11:15 AM'] Anyway, I recently stopped holding hands because it annoys me when people do that little raise at the "for the kingdom and the power and the glory..." part. I mean it really annoys me. I can't stand sanctimonious lay people. [/quote] I like lifting our hands up during this part! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted January 2, 2005 Share Posted January 2, 2005 I like dancing down the aisle, but neither raising your hands or dancing is part of the Mass. We don't add things to the Mass because it makes us all touchy feely. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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