mexmickey Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 (edited) hey guys, So this is the thing... One of our very faithful friends dislikes the fact that a lot of local churches in Houston hold hands during the prayer of Our Father. She finds it really wrong! Its not in the Catechism of the Catholic Church or anywhere! So, where did this ritual begin? Nobody is really sure. Well my friend asked us to begin to break the chain and pray w/o holding hands. My father thinks that holding hands brings us together and i better do it with him. If i dont do it with my friends thats okay, but he has to see me holdilng his hand in church, or he wont be happy. So what do you think? Is it wrong? The other day at mass, father held hands in front of everyone. So, Who is wrong here? Is it a problem? She believes it to be so because the Catholic church is UNIVERSAL, we do everything the same all over the world! If things become localized, it breaks the whole togetherness of the church. Whats up? Edited December 11, 2004 by mexmickey Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 Oh dear... here we go... It's not in the rubrics... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 (edited) Holding Hands at Mass Concerning holding hands in the Eucharistic Liturgy the Congregation for Divine Worship in Rome responded as follows: QUERY: In some places there is a current practice whereby those taking part in the Mass replace the giving of the sign of peace at the deacon's invitation by holding hands during the singing of the Lord's Prayer. Is this acceptable? REPLY: The prolonged holding of hands is of itself a sign of communion rather than of peace. Further, it is a liturgical gesture introduced spontaneously but on personal initiative; it is not in the rubrics. Nor is there any clear explanation of why the sign of peace at the invitation: "Let us offer each other the sign of peace" should be supplanted in order to bring a different gesture with less meaning into another part of the Mass: the sign of peace is filled with meaning, graciousness, and Christian inspiration. Any substitution for it must be repudiated: Notitiae 11 (1975) 226. [Notitiae is the journal of the Congregation in which its official interpretations of the rubrics are published.] While this addresses the holding of hands at the Sign of Peace the reasons given apply also elsewhere in the Mass, including at the Our Father. 1) It is an inappropriate "sign," since Communion is the sign of intimacy. Thus, a gesture of intimacy is introduced both before the sign of reconciliation (the Sign of Peace), but more importantly, before Holy Communion, the sacramental sign of communion/intimacy within the People of God. 2) It is introduced on personal initiative. The Holy See has authority over the liturgy according to Vatican II's "Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy" #22 and canon 838 of the Code of Canon Law. This gesture has come into widespread use, often leaving bishops and pastors at a loss as to how to reverse the situation. For individuals, I would recommend closed eyes and a prayerful posture as sufficient response, rather than belligerence. Most laity, and probably many priests, are blind to the liturgical significance of interrupting the flow of the Mass in this way. It is not necessary to lose one's peace over this or be an irritation to others. Some proportion is required. If asked why you don't participate, simply, plainly and charitably tell the questioner of your discovery. If some chance of changing the practice is possible talk to the pastor or work with other laity through the parish council. You can also write the bishop, as is your right in the case of any liturgical abuse not resolved at the parish level. If your judgment is that no change is possible then I believe you are excused from further fraternal correction. Answered by Colin B. Donovan, STL Edited December 11, 2004 by Brother Adam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
homeschoolmom Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 [quote name='mexmickey' date='Dec 11 2004, 01:49 AM'] we do everything the same all over the world! If things become localized, it breaks the whole togetherness of the church. [/quote] Unfortunately, this isn't exactly true... seems there are some parishes that don't kneel during the consecration... even though they are supposed to... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mexmickey Posted December 11, 2004 Author Share Posted December 11, 2004 [quote name='homeschoolmom' date='Dec 11 2004, 02:01 AM'] Unfortunately, this isn't exactly true... seems there are some parishes that don't kneel during the consecration... even though they are supposed to... [/quote] We kneel tp praise! Kneeling druing the consecration is necessary as it is the time when our lord Jesus is coimgn down into our mists! How is it getting changed everywhere? That's why the Pope writes books about reviewing our conduct. WE do offer PEACE before holding hands during the Lord's Prayer. I don't think that answered my question. I had spoken to the bishop after a confirmation service a few weeks ago and he just acknowledged it being a local practice but didnt seem to think it should be revoked since it ignites togetherness during prayer... i still dont know! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 My document answers your question Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 Technically, it is not forbidden for the faithful to hold hands during the Our Father. It cannot replace the Sign of Peace and the priest cannot initiate it. Because it is not contrary to the rubrics, canon law, or any other directives, there is nothing preventing the faithful from doing it of their own initiative. With all due respect to Mr. Donovan, he goes further than the Church has on this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 Technically, you are right, it is not forbidden, and I always urge the intent of the law above the letter of the law. For the reasons he does share though, I believe it is better to err on the side of caution. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 I don't really disagree with Mr. Donovan's conclusions, I'm just saying that the Church has not gone that far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 (edited) [quote name='mexmickey' date='Dec 11 2004, 03:49 AM'] hey guys, So this is the thing... One of our very faithful friends dislikes the fact that a lot of local churches in Houston hold hands during the prayer of Our Father. She finds it really wrong! Its not in the Catechism of the Catholic Church or anywhere! So, where did this ritual begin? Nobody is really sure. Well my friend asked us to begin to break the chain and pray w/o holding hands. My father thinks that holding hands brings us together and i better do it with him. If i dont do it with my friends thats okay, but he has to see me holdilng his hand in church, or he wont be happy. So what do you think? Is it wrong? The other day at mass, father held hands in front of everyone. So, Who is wrong here? Is it a problem? She believes it to be so because the Catholic church is UNIVERSAL, we do everything the same all over the world! If things become localized, it breaks the whole togetherness of the church. Whats up? [/quote] Your friend is quite right. It is not part of the Mass. Adding it is the same as adding any other personal activity to Mass; like if I decided to spin in circles or do a waltz while we sing hymns. Edited December 11, 2004 by cmotherofpirl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jgirl Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Dec 11 2004, 07:22 AM'] Adding it is the same as adding any other personal activity to Mass; like if I decided to spin in circles or do a waltz while we sing hymns. [/quote] Isn't liturgical dancing forbidden though? ;-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 Liturgical dancing is forbidden by the Church in the US. Hold handing is not. My point is that we or the priest or the bishop cannot add stuff to the Mass to please ourselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
p0lar_bear Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 [quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Dec 11 2004, 10:19 AM'] My point is that we or the priest or the bishop cannot add stuff to the Mass to please ourselves. [/quote] Well, yes and no...I mean, liturgical customs develop through the spontaneous initiative of the faithful in an area. The Church recognizes local liturgical customs...Honestly, I don't know what would qualify and what wouldn't. All I know is that if the faithful in an area continue a given practice for 30 years which is not contrary to any directive, it can (not always) be considered a legitimate liturgical custom. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EcceNovaFacioOmni Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 (edited) Our Bishop forced us to get kneelers! Hopefully all our diocese's abuses will end. Edited December 11, 2004 by thedude Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
karin Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 My priests stopped holding hands with the altar servers and all the altar servers stopped holding hands so we asked him why and he said because you are not really supposed to. You are supposed either hold your hands out or fold them in front of you. the priest is required to hold his hands out. But I thinks it is like the two glory be's they changed it but it's still ok to use the old one and most people do. It's not like it's a sin or anything if you do hold hands. I personally fold my hands during the Our Father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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