Illegal=Immoral

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Dec 13 2004, 06:21 PM'] Our government is pretty hard to be a tyranny because there are many ways to remove those in charge. [/quote]
except for those blasted judges that think killing babies is a 'right.' :angry:

Peace,
Joe

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]Two questions for you:

1) What do you propose?
[/quote]

Well I don't think it would be prudent to answer that question on an internet forum, however, I believe that the most Just system has been, is and will be a Fuedal Monarchy.

[quote]2) Are you ready to fight a war because that's what we have to do if our government is unjust, either leave the union or fight to get rid of the government.
[/quote]

The answer to that question is I realize what I am saying, and I am willing to do anything, which is not intrinsicly evil, to stop the Evil that is overwelming the world under the guise of "freedom"( which is really slavery to sin).

[quote]lso, are you sure you're not mixing oligarchy with tyranny here[/quote]

Quite sure, an oligarcy is siply a method of government, tyranny is astate of government--- Frankly I would find an oligarcy quite prefferablee to the rule of the Mob.

[quote]
Plus, our Constitution seems founded on the Natural Law. If it is, and it's followed (not really true now, but yeah, it still can be) then why should we rebel?
[/quote]

I would disagree with the statement entirely. So the second part really never comes into play. Some of the Constitution, as well as parts of the bill of rights are based on natural Law certianly most of it however is not.

[quote]Our government is pretty hard to be a tyranny because there are many ways to remove those in charge. [/quote]


I would contend that there is almost no way to remove those in charge, have you ever heard of the spoils system, well the laws that suppressed it also made most of the people actually running the country essentially imossible to get risd of, morethan that, there is very little differance between the republican party and the Democratic party, they are all Liberal Democrats, They are all Children of Decarte, and so they are all bound up with the lie that is Cartesian thought... but that is getting a bit more into the philosophy end than is appropriate for this discussion. Still in reallity there is very little choice, the "parties" are really just two sides of the same coin, one side just happens to be better than the other.

[Don John of Austria]

Well if you want me to prove our government is arbitrary then we need to agree on definitions.


Arbitrary

1 : depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by standards, rules, or law <the manner of punishment is arbitrary>
2 a : not restrained or limited in the exercise of power <an arbitrary government> b : marked by or resulting from the unrestrained exercise of power <protection from arbitrary arrest and detention>
3 a : based on preference, bias, prejudice, or convenience rather than on reason or fact <an arbitrary standard> <different provisions for the married and the unmarried were irrational and arbitrary —K. A. Cohen> b : existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as an unreasonable act of individual will without regard for facts or applicable law —often used in the phrase arbitrary and capricious <an agency finding or conclusion of lack of evidence would be arbitrary and capricious if the record afforded no substantial basis for such a finding —Irvin v. Hobby, 131 Federal Reporter Supp. 851 (1955)>


I think numbers 2 and 3 best fits the use of the word as it is used in the Catholic Encyclopedia-- what do you think?

[qfnol31]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 13 2004, 11:20 PM'] Well if you want me to prove our government is arbitrary then we need to agree on definitions. [/quote]
Okay.



Arbitrary

[quote]1 : depending on individual discretion (as of a judge) and not fixed by standards, rules, or law <the manner of punishment is arbitrary>[/quote]

Well, this isn't true for us. Our punishment isn't arbitrary, it's set up so it's not arbitrary; all punishment has bounds (upper and lower). So some punishment is different, but then again, it's not just based on the whims of people. Judges dont just dish out whatever they want without listening. Again, what's being described here is a tyranny. Also, judges don't last forever. They, too, are elected. Judges don't set up the law, they just help judge if a person is innocent or guilty, and even then they technically don't have that power.

[quote]2 a : not restrained or limited in the exercise of power <an arbitrary government> b : marked by or resulting from the unrestrained exercise of power <protection from arbitrary arrest and detention>[/quote]

We definitely have a limited government. No one reigns unrestrained.

[quote]3 a : based on preference, bias, prejudice, or convenience rather than on reason or fact <an arbitrary standard> <different provisions for the married and the unmarried were irrational and arbitrary —K. A. Cohen> b : existing or coming about seemingly at random or by chance or as an unreasonable act of individual will without regard for facts or applicable law —often used in the phrase arbitrary and capricious <an agency finding or conclusion of lack of evidence would be arbitrary and capricious if the record afforded no substantial basis for such a finding —Irvin v. Hobby, 131 Federal Reporter Supp. 851 (1955)>[/quote]

I do not believe that it's set up to run off of bias, prejudice, or convenience. But then again, I go to an incredibly conservative (politically speaking) school. Read the Constitution. It's pretty well defined. Again, I don't think all the actions of the government are just (far from it!), but neither are my parents, but I don't think they are unjust in their authority over me.

[quote]I think numbers 2 and 3 best fits the use of the word as it is used in the Catholic Encyclopedia-- what do you think?[/quote]

I've responded.

[quote]Well I don't think it would be prudent to answer that question on an internet forum, however, I believe that the most Just system has been, is and will be a Fuedal Monarchy.[/quote]

And the least just as well (Aquinas).

[quote]The answer to that question is I realize what I am saying, and I am willing to do anything, which is not intrinsicly evil, to stop the Evil that is overwelming the world under the guise of "freedom"( which is really slavery to sin).[/quote]

Our government isn't set up for arbitrary freedom, again, in the Constitution.

[quote]Quite sure, an oligarcy is siply a method of government, tyranny is astate of government--- Frankly I would find an oligarcy quite prefferablee to the rule of the Mob.[/quote]

I think that's the same thing...

[quote]I would disagree with the statement entirely. So the second part really never comes into play. Some of the Constitution, as well as parts of the bill of rights are based on natural Law certianly most of it however is not.[/quote]

Go pull up my thread on this. There is absolutely nothing there that contradicts Natural Law, that I can find. [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=22779&hl=natural+law"]Constitution Thread[/url]

[quote]I would contend that there is almost no way to remove those in charge, have you ever heard of the spoils system, well the laws that suppressed it also made most of the people actually running the country essentially imossible to get risd of, morethan that, there is very little differance between the republican party and the Democratic party, they are all Liberal Democrats, They are all Children of Decarte, and so they are all bound up with the lie that is Cartesian thought... but that is getting a bit more into the philosophy end than is appropriate for this discussion. Still in reallity there is very little choice, the "parties" are really just two sides of the same coin, one side just happens to be better than the other.[/quote]

We got rid of Clinton. Maybe they aren't perfect, but sadly very few people try to reform them either.

[qfnol31]

How do you feel about the social contract theory?

[Don John of Austria]

qfnol31-- Okay maybe you don't understand how this works I wasn't argueing anything, I am trying to define the word arbitary for our discusssion, I don'tthink number 1 applies to this arguement however I do think number 2 and 3 is what we are discussing, this isn't an arguement, do you agree to those definitions?

[qfnol31]

Okay, I do agree to those.

[qfnol31]

Also, I propose one last piece to this as well. In the Bible, Pilate is about to condemn God to death. At the same time, Jesus says he has been given authority from Heaven. If it wasn't a justly-ruling government, God would not have given them authority, correct?

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]How do you feel about the social contract theory?[/quote] As proposed by Rousseau-- Trash, hereitical trash.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]Also, I propose one last piece to this as well. In the Bible, Pilate is about to condemn God to death. At the same time, Jesus says he has been given authority from Heaven. If it wasn't a justly-ruling government, God would not have given them authority, correct[/quote]
Well I think Ancient Rome is quite differant tha n America, but thisis not a very good exampleanyway, Christ HAD to die onthe Cross, HE HAD TO, so Pilate would have been given that authority regardless of the Authority of the Roman goverment in general.

[qfnol31]

Christ may have had to die, but I don't think he [i]had[/i] to be killed by the state. The government was still given authority by God, regardless.

[Don John of Austria]

yes butthe authority of the Roman state is not whats under discussion here.

[qfnol31]

Okay.

Wow, you're up early.

[Don John of Austria]

I am a teacher, and a Librarian, gotta be up and have the librery open at 7:30.

[qfnol31]

Wow.