Sojourner Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 [quote name='burnsspivey' date='Dec 10 2004, 12:54 PM'] *laughs* "I get to use this argument, but you can't." Please. I was simply trying to point out that the reasoning of the argument can be used in situations with which you disagree. If it's a question of morals you don't get to just use yours and assume that everyone else will as well. Just because you believe you have a handle on the absolute truth doesn't mean that everyone else agrees with you. [/quote] You don't get to pick and choose what bits of natural law you get to use. It comes all as a package. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 [quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 10 2004, 12:18 PM'] agreed but one is not obliged to endanger ones life and the life of others to obey it. And no Texas doesn't have a go with the flow law, it doesn't have any grace at all for speeding, but the facts that driving significantly below the speed of traffic causes accidents cannot be disputed, one is not required [i]morally[/i] to endanger ones life or the lives of others to obey the speed limit. [/quote] I would say that that's the same as participating in evil so that good can come from it. The other people are breaking the just law, participating in evil, so should I do it too? I think there's a logical flaw in that... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Dec 10 2004, 03:47 PM'] I would say that that's the same as participating in evil so that good can come from it. The other people are breaking the just law, participating in evil, so should I do it too? I think there's a logical flaw in that... [/quote] I don't think I want to be a passenger when you're driving. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 Aww, how come? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Dec 10 2004, 03:51 PM'] Aww, how come? [/quote] If you're going to drive the speed limit no matter what ... I just am not willing to endanger my life for an arbitrary law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burnsspivey Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 [quote name='Sojourner' date='Dec 10 2004, 01:47 PM'] You don't get to pick and choose what bits of natural law you get to use. It comes all as a package. [/quote] Not arguing natural law, here. I don't agree with the concept. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 [quote name='Sojourner' date='Dec 10 2004, 02:56 PM'] If you're going to drive the speed limit no matter what ... I just am not willing to endanger my life for an arbitrary law. [/quote] Ahh, but it's not actually just an arbitrary law. My moral theology professor gave an argument why it and the drinking age laws are not arbitrary. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Dec 10 2004, 04:11 PM'] Ahh, but it's not actually just an arbitrary law. My moral theology professor gave an argument why it and the drinking age laws are not arbitrary. [/quote] I'd love to hear it. I might not get to read it until next week, though, as I'm out for the weekend. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
burnsspivey Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 [quote name='thessalonian' date='Dec 10 2004, 01:36 PM'] Yes, relativism is rampant around this country. And everyone seems to want to believe there are no absolute truths. But then they fail to realize that statement in and of itself is "an absolute truth", though a false one. One may beilve that if he drives his chevy impala 80 miles per hour in to a wall that he won't get hurt. He certainly may believe that but the consequences will not be lessoned because of his false belief. Our laws and our objectives in influencing them as individuals must consider proper morality of which God says it is implanted on all men's hearts such that none has an excuse in Romans 2:15. [/quote] You can't avoid relativism when you have people of different faiths living together. Even different sects of christianity disagree on many, many things and just because you hold one above the others doesn't mean that everyone else does. This kind of thinking is the height of egocentrism. Frankly, I can handle the cognitive dissonance of saying that there are no absolutes. Then again, I don't say that -- the only constant is change, the eternal absolute. Your analogy is a false one because the belief offers immediate, concrete proof of its falsity, whereas moral beliefs do not. Our laws should not be influence by any particular religion or the rest of the religions, and the followers thereof, suffer. [quote]Going against God's laws is no less consequential than going against the physical laws of nature.[/quote] So you are free to believe, when you can offer concrete proof of such, let me know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 The argument is pretty much they didn't just choose a number to make the speed limit, but deliberated on it. Had they just chosen a number, then it would be wrong. But here, whether we disagree or not, they did research. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 [quote name='qfnol31' date='Dec 10 2004, 04:18 PM'] The argument is pretty much they didn't just choose a number to make the speed limit, but deliberated on it. Had they just chosen a number, then it would be wrong. But here, whether we disagree or not, they did research. [/quote] I can perhaps see applying that to speed limits ... but drinking ages? Especially since other countries have drinking ages so far below ours. Or a smoking age. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 For that matter, speed limits in similar sections of the street can vary greatly from town to town, or even within cities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 I think they're both fair. Just because another country is different does not mean it shouldn't be the rule here. Look at it this way, it's legal in most states (or at least many) for the children to drink with their parents present. However, most parents and children do not drink wine. Why is our age limit different? Because it wouldn't do any good to lower it. In other countries, the children grow up drinking wine. We must look at culture. Some things are different in different cultures. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 many speedlimits are set only to earn money for the town/city. Is that just? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 if the law doesn't cause you to do something wrong, you should follow it. it's a matter of obedience. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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