Sojourner Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 OK, I just finished reading the book "Under the Banner of Heaven: A Story of Violent Faith" by Jon Krakauer. It provides a lot of history of the Mormon church, which is interesting, but one of the things I noticed was the number of people Krakauer interviewed that reported having witnessed or performed miracles, such as healing, or saw angels. What do you guys make of this? I suppose I'd never thought of it before, but I'm sure people in other religious traditions also have experience with supernatural occurences like this, so I'm just wondering how those would be classified -- demonic influence? something else? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
aloha918 Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 im not really sure of what to make of them either......i know for many they would say demonic influencse, but i don't reallly always believe that......i would say if anything that these miracles would be to increase the faith of the people they are happening to.....but also recieve the grace to see the truth of the Catholic church..........but then again what do i know...lol..... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 God's grace works outside the Catholic Church. This can be seen in the life of Cornelius in Acts 10&11 who was a righteous and God fearing man though not a Jew or a Christian. An angel appeared to him as I recall. Acts 10:1-3 Now there was a man at Caesarea named Cornelius, a centurion of what was called the Italian cohort, a devout man and one who feared God with all his household, and gave many alms to the Jewish people and prayed to God continually. About the ninth hour of the day he clearly saw in a vision an angel of God who had just come in and said to him, "Cornelius!" I have no doudt that throughout time there have been other Cornelius's in the world and even many in the Mormon Church who have not had Christ explained to them correctly but know there is a God and fear him. I have met many myself having lived in Utah for 8 years, that I suspect this is true of but of course I cannot read hearts. God will sort it out. As for miracles, 10 lepers were healed and only one came back to thank our Lord, so men can be healed who have no real faith or love of God at all. But the Mormons I know at least have some concept of God. I do not doudt they can happen in them. The spirit blows where it will leading men toward God's holy mountain. Hope that helps. Blessings Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted December 9, 2004 Author Share Posted December 9, 2004 The interesting thing in reading about Mormonism is how much the occult figured into the creation of the religion ... as in, Joseph Smith was pretty heavily involved with occult practices immediately before he allegedly found the golden tablets on which were inscribed the Book of Mormon. I'm sure you're right, though, that there are those brought up in the religion who know there is a God and fear him, but have never had the truth of Christ explained to them ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thessalonian Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 (edited) A couple of other examples of interest would be the good samaritan for instance. Samaritans were a product of the intermarrying of the Jews and Assyrians after the Northern Kingdom was captured by Assyria. They intermarried and the religions also became mixed such that they accepted the Jewish God but they mixed in some of their pagan beliefs. Yet Jesus choose the actions of a samaritan who stopped and took care of a man who was beaten over the actions of a priest and a levite who had his truth, and may even have been attempting to obey the law, due to the prohibition against touching dead bodies, as an example for us to follow. The three wise men as well were not of Israel but were from the East. Likely pagans as well. The spirit moved them to come to a little town called Bethlehem and bow down and do homage to a little baby who was their savior, though likely they did not know it and I am sure did not have a concept of the trinity. This they did while leaders of the very people who he came to, who had the scriptures, missed his coming and did not know he was in the world. As for the Mormons and Joseph Smith, once again the Bible holds those who teach and decieve to a higher standard of accountability (see James 3:1, Luke 12 around v. 45 where the "one who knows is treated with the unbeliver but the one who does not know recieves fewer lashes). I would not like to be Joseph Smith or Martin Luther for that matter at judgement, but the individual Mormon may not be as accountable. Each man is judged on the light that THEY have recieved and their reaction to the grace that has been given them. That is the way I understand it. Further if JS did see an angel and that angel contradicted Catholic teaching (though I don't think an angel will neccessarily or likely expound on Catholic teaching) it was an angel of light (i.e. the devil). And of course there are false miracles. Blessings Edited December 9, 2004 by thessalonian Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Eremite Posted December 9, 2004 Share Posted December 9, 2004 I don't think that God grants miracles in a public setting, because miracles (aside from their direct effect) are meant to confirm the TRUTHFULNESS of a particular group, that they come from God. This was the purpose of having the Apostles speak in tongues at Pentecost, for example. But I do think that God grants private miracles to non-Catholics. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 "And Mr. Blatchford is quite wrong in supposing that the Christian and the Moslem deny each other's miracles. No religion that thinks itself true bothers about the miracles of another religion. It denies the doctrines of the religion; it denies its morals; but it never thinks it worth while to deny its signs and wonders. And why not? Because these things some men have always thought possible. Because any wandering gipsy may have Psychical powers. Because the general existence of a world of spirits and of strange mental powers is a part of the common sense of all mankind. The Pharisees did not dispute the miracles of Christ; they said they were worked by devilry. The Christians did not dispute the miracles of Mahomed. They said they were worked by devilry. The Roman world did not deny the possibility that Christ was a God. It was far too enlightened for that." -G.K. Chesterton Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sojourner Posted December 10, 2004 Author Share Posted December 10, 2004 I love Chesterton ... he always knew just what to say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Justified Saint Posted December 10, 2004 Share Posted December 10, 2004 Indeed, and he was usually 100% correct in everything he said. Truly one of the greatest writers Catholic or not, 20th century or otherwise. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 I agree entirely, his [u]Orthodoxy[/u] was one of the first works on the Faith that I read after I really started taking the Church seriously, and it has had a tremendous impact on me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatmasser777 Posted December 11, 2004 Share Posted December 11, 2004 who knows. There isnt one religion on earth that can say it has miracles and another doesnt [if they claim so]. Also onto that miracles in other faiths, also show us that whatever you perceive to be the one true religion isnt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hyperdulia again Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 Miracles properly called so do not happen outside of the Church. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatmasser777 Posted December 14, 2004 Share Posted December 14, 2004 You say. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now