Immaculate Conception

[thessalonian]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 8 2004, 03:55 PM'] Simple - it originated out of the flights of fancy of sinful, depraved men who delight in replacing, and indeed, making void, the Word of God, to be replaced by their traditions, which contradict the Scriptures. [/quote]
I tell you a doctrine that "nullifies the word of God". It's called sola scriptura and it is license to deny anything that is in the Bible. Take for instance the obvious parrellel between the Ark of the Covenant and Mary. (see my post above) I can show you examples of people who will deny deny deny that this parrellel exists and you likely will as well. I even had one guy tell me that satan found it and and used it to decieve the Church. But it is there and it has meaning. The meaning that God intended. Open your eyes ICTHUS and the scriptures will come alive for you in ways that you could never have imagined under your oppressive sola scriptura mentality that leaves you handcuffed by inadequate translations and false, dead end traditions that lead you down blind alleys (like sola scriptura and sola fide). Open yourself to the world of the Word of God including and guided by sacred oral teaching which rather than putting God in a box of words that are ambigous and open to your human fallibility, they become fountains of living water.

I find that rather than restrict my biblical thinking, the restrictions that sacred oral tradition put on me actually free me from the chains of error from the dead and theological falacies spoke of above. Tradition is to biblical freedom like the restrains of the commandments are to freedom of the soul, allowing you to live under the will of God, rather than bound by the chains of sin.

God bless

Edited December 8, 2004 by thessalonian

[thessalonian]

phatcatholic;

Nice supplement. GREAT POST!

[Guest Aluigi]

let's not get sidetracked from the sola scriptura comment, keep on track IMMACULATE CONCEPTION.

[thessalonian]

Sorry boss!

[point5]

Most of this has been hit on...but I wrote this for another board and it is a good proof for the Immaculate conception (very long though):

the argument will be based on 4 points:

[b]1. The meaning of the Angel's words and appearence to Mary in Luke 1.
2. The typology of Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant
3. THe typology of Mary as the New Eve
4. The testimony of the Early Church Fathers[/b]

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[b]1) The Meaning of the Angels words in Luke 1[/b]

The first and most convincing scripture we must look at is LK 1:28 "Hail, FULL OF GRACE! The Lord is with you." This verse here goes deep and then deeper! The original Greek states Chaire Kecharitomene. Let’s start with the first word: Chaire. This is best translated as "Hail", and it is worth noting. The word Chaire is a greeting or salutation, and in ancient times such as our present setting, it was often used when greeting royalty . This is very interesting because an angel...a servant of the most high comes to this little 14yr old girl and the first thing he says to her is "hail" because she is royalty (mother of the King). It is clear this distinguishes her form a normal person.

Another thing to note is the way Mary reacts when the Angel of the Lord appears. In all other accounts of an Angel of the Lord appearing to a person in the bible, the immediate response is usually something along the lines of bowing down in fear, or worshiping, or even mistaking the angel for YHWY himself. A notable occurrence of this is John nose diving on two separate occasions when the Angel of the Lord greets him two separate times in Rev 19:10. This is the only time when the angel appears to a person in Scripture and the normal response does not happen, in fact it's almost the exact opposite. The Angel is the one who is basically saying "WOW!!" or "HAIL!!!!", I like to use that as a modern translation so we can grasp the meaning of the word.

Ok, back to Chaire, or hail, note that it is always followed by a name. We see the use of Chaire in other places in the bible as well: Hail Jesus King of the Jews (although it's mocking its still used to show royalty), and Hail Caesar. Every time Chaire is stated, it is immediately followed by a name. So what does the Angel name Mary? Kecharitomene, or "full of grace". That’s right this is not two words and adjective and a noun, it is one word...a verb. The word "kecharitomene" is a perfect passive participle of the verb "charitoo." The literal meaning of this word is something along the lines of "she who has been perfected in grace", the verb form lets us know that it is a past completed action with an ongoing result. So essentially the angel is naming Mary "she who has been perfected in grace". I'm sure you are aware at the sacredness of names in that culture. And we see that every time a new name is given in the bible it is of great significance: Abram to Abraham, Jacob to Israel, Simon to Peter, and there are more. This is no different, this name has huge significance. Mary had a past action of being full of grace, with an ongoing state of grace. Note here that this is different than the "full of grace" that is used to describe Stephen in acts before he becomes a martyr. There the Greek uses two words an adjective and a noun. Stephen was full of grace too, but only at the specific moment right before he died, and as the Catholic Church teaches all martyrs go directly to heaven (no purgatory...something we believe in...another conversation I suppose) because they are in a state of grace before they die. The difference is Mary's "full of grace" is a verb and is used to name her. She has been and will always be full of grace in a sense.

check here for mre info: [url="http://members.aol.com/johnprh/conception.html"]http://members.aol.com/johnprh/conception.html[/url]

or: [url="http://home.nyc.rr.com/mysticalrose/marian4.html"]http://home.nyc.rr.com/mysticalrose/marian4.html[/url]

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[b]2.) [/b][b]The typology of Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant[/b]


[b]First lets have an overview of what a typology is for those anaware[/b]. Typological study of the Bible focuses upon Old Testament people, places, and events that pre-figure or foreshadow New Testament people, places, and events. We find typological examples many places in Scripture.

Jesus Christ Himself provides an example in the Gospel of Matthew

"For as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale, so will the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth." (Matt 12:40)

and another in the Gospel of John

"And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, so must the Son of man be lifted up, that whoever believes in him may have eternal life." (John 3:14-15)

Paul continually refers to Jesus as the New Adam...as sin entered the world by one man so the forgiveness of sin came through one man. St. Paul says that Adam typologically references Jesus: both go to a garden, both go to a tree, both leave a garden, and both are tested. However, where Adam disobeyed, Christ obeyed. Adam is not the only proto-type to Christ. Isaac, son of Abraham, also is another type of Christ: both carry the wood for their own sacrifice and both willingly succomb to their Father's will.There are many other examples of typologies in scripture...but you get the idea.
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[b]The typology of Mary as the New Ark of the Covenant (most of this will be taken from here A thematic study of Mary in Scripture[/b]):

To better understand this, let us recall the role of the Old Testament Ark. The Old Testament Ark held the [b]written Word of God, the manna from heaven which saved the Israelites from starvation[/b]. Also, the Ark was housed in the Tabernacle also constructed by Moses under the direction of God. The tabernacle was made holy by the [b]Shekina[/b], the presence of God. Scott Hahn provides an excellent definition of the [b]Shekina[/b]:

"[b]What's a shekina[/b]? That is the dwelling presence of God, the glory cloud which at once is luminous and yet dark. It's that within which you saw all the thunder and the lightning. It's that which Moses entered, the shekina. It's what made the tabernacle so holy. In fact when this glorious cloud descended from heaven down to the tabernacle that had been built, Moses himself couldn't even enter the tabernacle, much less the other priests, to do service because the glorious, smoky cloud of God's presence filled it, once the Ark had been consecrated." [3]

As the Ark of the New Covenant, Mary held the [b]Living Word of God, the Bread from Heaven that grants eternal life, as well as the physical and spiritual presence of God. Just as God protected the Old Testament Ark from profanation and violation, so we also expect that God similarly protected Mary's body[/b]. Let us explore the following passages as a quick overview to the Ark typology of Mary:

[b]Scriptural Support[/b]

[b]a.)[/b] [b]Both experienced an overshadowing (epischiadze) by the Holy Spirit [/b]

And the angel said to her, "The Holy Spirit will come upon you, and the power of the Most High will [b]overshadow[/b] you; therefore the child to be born will be called holy, the Son of God. (Lk 1:35)

Then the cloud covered the tent of meeting, and the glory of the LORD filled the tabernacle. And Moses was not able to enter the tent of meeting, because the cloud abode upon it, and the glory of the LORD filled(same word [b]epischiadze[/b]) the tabernacle. (Ex 40:34-35)

[b]b.) Both Mary and David "arose and made the journey"[/b]

And David [b]arose and went[/b] with all the people who were with him from Ba'ale-judah, to bring up from there the ark of God, which is called by the name of the LORD of hosts who sits enthroned on the cherubim. (2 Sam 6:2)

In those days Mary [b]arose and went [/b]with haste into the hill country, to a city of Judah, (Lk 1:39)

[b]c) Rare liturgical greeting, anfametzen, used for both greetings [/b]

And David was afraid of the LORD that day; and he said, "[b]How can the ark of the LORD come to me[/b]?" (2 Sam 6:9)

"And [b]why is this granted me, that the mother of my Lord should come to me[/b]?" (Lk 1:43)

[b]d) Mary stayed three months, the Ark stayed for three months. [/b]

And the ark of the LORD [b]remained[/b] in the house of O'bed-e'dom the Gittite [b]three months[/b]; and the LORD blessed O'bed-e'dom and all his household. (2 Sam 6:11)

And Mary [b]remained with her about three months[/b], and returned to her home. (Lk 1:56)

[b]e) John the Baptist leapt for joy, just as David leapt and danced when the Ark approached. [/b]

And David [b]danced before the LORD [/b]with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod. So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the horn. As [b]the ark of the LORD [/b]came into the city of David, Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window, and saw King [b]David leaping and dancing before the LORD[/b]; (2 Sam 6:14-16a)

For behold, when the voice of your greeting came to my ears, the [b]babe in my womb leaped for joy[/b]. (Lk 1:44)

OK so right about now I'm going WOW...Scripture is clear Mary is the New Ark of the Covenant!!!! Old ark contained 1)God's Word, 2)manna from heaven, and the 3)staff of Aaron (the high priest).......New Ark(Mary) contained in her womb(new ark) the 1)Word made flesh, the 2)new bread of life which will save us, and the 3)Highest Priest!!!!

this stuff is RICH!!!!

[b]How does this contribute to the teaching of the Immaculate Conception?[/b]

First if you go back to Exodus and look at God's instructions for building the original ark, you find that it was to be built with great detail and to be made perfect. It was to be covered with pure gold...symbolizing purity and perhaps royalty. Read Exodus 37:1- 9 for more of the instructions for it's formation.

Also, no sinful man was to touch the ark (knock knock...ding dong....perpetual virginity???). The Ark of the Covenant couldn't be touched. And yet the Ark of the Covenant was so powerful. Whenever they went off into battle, the Levites had to disassemble the tabernacle, but only the Aaronites could actually handle the Ark. The Levites could handle the poles on which it rested and they could carry it. But if they carried that Ark in the battle, their foes trembled. Once it was captured by the Philistines because of the wickedness of the Jews. It's taken by the Philistines to the Temple of Dagon. We read about it in 1st Samuel. And the Philistines can't believe their lucky day. They got the Ark of the Covenant, the secret nuclear weapon that the Israelites possessed to wipe out all their foes.

look with me at 2nd Samuel, chapter 6. You'll see here how seriously God takes the holiness of the Ark. David has become king. Takes the ark to Abinadab and here we see how no sinful man can touch the ark: "And the anger of the Lord was kindled against Uzzah and God smote him there because he put forth his hand to the Ark, and he died there beside the Ark of God. And David was afraid."

There are other accounts of men trying to steal the ark and dropping like flys....no one could touch it....only the priests could, and only like once a year and after cleansing (I might be mistaken on this I remember hearing Tim Staples speak on it...forgive me if I'm innaccurate about the priests being able to touch it.

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[b]3.) The typology of Mary as the New Eve[/b]

Scripture and the Church Fathers both recognize Mary as the New Eve. Around 145-150 AD, St. Justin Martyr refers to Mary as the New Eve in his writings. Let us examine the following passages in order to gain a better understanding of this teaching.

The New Eve is a theme which runs through the entire Bible, from Genesis to Revelation. God first foretold the coming of the second Adam and Eve in the same prophesy: "And I will put enmity between thee and the woman, and between thy seed and her seed; it shall bruise they head, and thou shalt bruise his heel" ([b]Genesis 3:15[/b]). Now the "seed" here is the Messiah, Jesus Christ, the New Adam. Since God calls Jesus the "seed (or offspring) of the woman", this woman is the mother of the Messiah - the Virgin Mary! Christ is truly the Seed of the Woman because He was born of a virgin (without the seed of a man), and Mary is that Virgin Mother.

Throughout the Hebrew Scriptures, the New Eve is foreshadowed in the figure of Daughter Zion, Israel personified as YHWH's beloved Bride. In the New Testament, the Virgin Mary comes to embody Daughter Zion. [b]The angel Gabriel's words to Mary at the Annunciation parallel the prophet Zephaniah's words to Daughter Zion (compare Luke 1:28, 30-32 with Zephaniah 3:14-17)[/b]. This humble Jewish maiden is the personification of Zion, God's faithful bride.

Early Christians taught that the Annunciation marks the reversal of the temptation of the first Eve (see below for quotations). [b]In the Garden, Eve believed the lies of a fallen angel, disobeyed God and so became the cause of Adam's Fall (Genesis 3:1-7). At the Annunciation, Mary believed the words spoken by a holy angel, obeyed God and so became the Mother of the One who would save us from Adam's Fall! Mary's obedience reversed Eve's disobedience; thus Mary is the New Eve for the new creation in Christ. [/b]

St. Elizabeth's inspired reference to Christ as the "fruit of (Mary's) womb" (Luke 1:42) also identifies Our Lady as the New Eve. The first Eve gave Adam the forbidden fruit, and so she became the indirect cause of the Fall, The New Eve gave the New Adam "the Fruit of her womb" - His human Body, in which He suffered and died for us - and so she became the indirect cause of the Redemption.

(It's unfortunate that the Protestant NIV translation replaces the word "fruit" here with "child", thus destroying the divinely-intended parallelism. The Greek word here is not teknon, child, but karpos, fruit, the exact word used in the Greek Septuagint translation of Genesis 3 to refer to the fruit of the Tree of Knowledge!)

In the Gospel of St. John, Jesus the New Adam calls Mary "[b]Woman[/b]" (John 2:3), even as the first Adam called the first Eve "[b]woman[/b]": "She shall be called "woman", because she was taken out of man" (Gen. 2:23). Some of Mary's detractors actually believe that Jesus was disrespectful to His Mother here (as though He would break His own Commandment: "Honour thy father and thy mother"!). [b]In reality, His words have deep significance: Jesus identifies Mary with the Woman of Genesis 3:15, and Himself with her Seed who will crush the head of the serpent.[/b]

St. John's depiction of Calvary clearly parallels the Garden of Eden:[b] there is a tree (the Cross - see Galatians 3:13), a man (Jesus) and a woman (Mary).[/b] The New Adam again calls the New Eve "Woman" and declares her to be the Mother of his beloved disciple (and, by extension, of all Christians). As Eve was the "mother of the living" (Gen. 3:21), so Mary is the Mother of all who have eternal life in Christ

If John 19:25-27 clearly parallels the first chapters of Genesis, with Mary in the "Eve-role", in Revelation 12 we find a specific parallel to Genesis 3:15:

And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; [b]a woman clothed with the sun[/b], and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars...and behold, a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads...stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born. [b]And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron[/b] (1-5).
Here, [b]as in Genesis 3:15[/b], we have a woman, a serpent/dragon and a male child who is born of (the seed of!) the woman. The dragon is Satan the "ancient serpent" (Rev 12:9), the woman's Seed/Son is Christ the New Adam, so the Woman is clearly the New Eve, the same Woman whose seed God foretold would crush the serpent's head. She who personifies Daughter Zion, the Old Testament People of God, here also represents Mother Church, the New Testament People of God. So this glorious Woman pf Revelation 12 clearly signifies the Virgin Mary, who gave birth to Jesus the New Adam. Once again, Mary is clearly shown to be the New Eve.

another thing to notice here is That John wrote just before this verse that he saw the [b]ark of the covenant [/b](rev 11:19) ... and then it goes to this verse I believe to be referring to Mary as the New Eve. Remember I have already shown Mary as the New Ark according to Scripture. There were no chapters when John wrote this so it went from ark to woman. This couldnt have been the old ark of the covenant, because Revelation is all about fullfillment of Old Testament prophecies and typologies!

Scripture is clear Mary is the New Eve....who is the only woman to be born without sin???? Eve....Mary's Immaculate Conception only fits the typology!

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[b]4.) The support of the Early Christians.[/B] many of the first quotes support the New Eve typology...and later they support the Immaculate Conception.

Irenaeus

"As Eve was seduced by the speech of an angel, so as to flee God in transgressing his word, so also Mary received the good tidings by means of the angel's speech, so as to be God within her, being obedient to this word. And though the one had disobeyed God, yet the other was drawn to obey him; that of the virgin Eve, the virgin Mary might become the advocate and as by a virgin the human race had been bound to death, [B]by a virgin it is saved, the balance being preserved- a virgin's disobedience by a virgin' obedience[/b]" (Against Heresies, 3, 19) (130 A.D.)

Irenaeus here states that "by a virgin it is saved" This shows Mary's role in salvation history...she does have one. Anyone who has read anything about Irenaeus knows that he believes that Christ is how we obtain salvation...and is the reason we are and can be saved...but I do not believe this here is a contradiction to that belief. Through Mary's odedience, as opposed to Eve's disobedience, salvation came into the world.

St Justin Martyr

"Christ became man by the Virgin that the disobedience which issued from the serpent might be destroyed in the same way it originated. [b]Eve was still an undefiled virgin when she conceived the word of the serpent[/b] and brought forth disobedience and death. But the Virgin received faith and joy, at the announcement of the angel Gabriel...and she replied, "Be it done to me according you your word".[b] So through the mediation of the Virgin he came into the world, through whom God would crush the serpent"[/b] (Apologia, ch. 100; 150 AD).

[b]For whereas Eve, yet a virgin and undefiled, through conceiving the word that came from the serpent, brought forth disobedience and death; the Virgin Mary, taking faith and joy, when the Angel told her the good tidings that the Spirit of the Lord should come upon her, and the power of the Most High overshadow her, and therefore the Holy One to be born of her should be the Son of God, answered, Be it don to me according to thy word. And so by means of her was he born, concerning whom we have shown so many Scriptures were spoken; through whom God overthrows the serpent, and those angels and men who have become like to it, and on the other hand, works deliverance from death for such as repent of their evil doings and believe in him[/b] (Dialogue with Trypho, 100 A.D.)

St. Epiphanius

Eve was called the mother of the living...[b]after the fall this title was given to her[/b]. True it is...the whole race of man upon earth was born from Eve; but in reality it is from Mary the Life was truly born to the world. [b]So that by giving birth to the Living One, Mary became the mother of all living[/b] (St. Epiphanius, Against Eighty Heresies, 78,9)


Tertullian

"Likewise, through a Virgin, the Word of God was introduced to set up a structure of life. Thus, what had been laid waste in ruin by this sex, was by the same sex re-established in salvation. [b]Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which the one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight[/b]." (Tertullian, The Flesh of Christ 17:4; 210 AD)

Augustine

"(The Lord) was not averse to males, for he took the form of a male, nor to females, for of a female he was born. [b]Besides, there is a great mystery here: that just as death comes to us through a woman, Life is born to us through a woman[/b]; that the devil, defeated, would be tormented by each nature, feminine and masculine, as he had taken delight in the defection of both" (Augustine Christian Combat 22:24; 396 AD).

"[b]We must except the Holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom I wish to raise no question when it touches the subject of sins[/b], out of honour to the Lord; for from Him we know what abundance of grace for overcoming sin in every particular was conferred upon her who had the merit to conceive and bear Him who undoubtedly had no sin."
Augustine,Nature and Grace,42[36](A.D.415),in NPNF1,V:135

Hippolytus

"He was the [b]ark formed of incorruptible wood[/b]. For by this is signified that His tabernacle was exempt from putridity and corruption."
Hippolytus,Orat. Inillud, Dominus pascit me(ante A.D. 235),in ULL,94

Origen

"This Virgin Mother of the Only-begotten of God, is called Mary, worthy of God, [b]immaculate of the immaculate[/b], one of the one."
Origen,Homily 1(A.D. 244),in ULL,94

Ephraim

"Let woman praise Her, the [b]pure Mary[/b]."
Ephraim,Hymns on the Nativity,15:23(A.D. 370),in NPNF2,XIII:254

"Thou alone and thy Mother are in all things fair, [b]there is no flaw in thee and no stain in thy Mother[/b]."
"Ephraem,Nisibene Hymns,27:8(A.D. 370),in THEO,132

Ambrose

"Mary, [b]a Virgin not only undefiled but a Virgin whom grace has made inviolate, free of every stain of sin[/b]."
Ambrose,Sermon 22:30(A.D. 388),in JUR,II:166

Proclus of Constantinople

"As he formed [b]her without my stain of her own[/b],so He proceeded from her [b]contracting no stain[/b]."
Proclus of Constantinople,Homily 1(ante A.D. 446),in ULL,97

Theodotus of Ancrya

[b]"A virgin, innocent, spotless, free of all defect, untouched, unsullied[/b], holy in soul and body, like a lily sprouting among thorns."
Theodotus of Ancrya,Homily VI:11(ante A.D. 446),in THEO,339

Peter Chrysologus

"[b]The angel took not the Virgin from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged from Joseph, but gave her to Christ, to whom she was pledged in the womb, when she was made[/b]."
Peter Chrysologus,Sermon 140(A.D. 449),in ULL,97

Jacob of Sarug

"[T]he very fact that God has elected her proves that none was ever holier than Mary, [b]if any stain had disfigured her soul, if any other virgin had been purer and holier, God would have selected her and rejected Mary[/b]."
Jacob of Sarug(ante A.D. 521),in CE



In Christ

Kiel

[InHisHands381]

Oh wow! Thanks everyone for the ample explanations!

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Dec 8 2004, 01:21 AM'] Therefore, when it is used in Luke 1:28, it means, you have been graced, favorable, agreeable, always and it is still so.
[/quote]
You've made a bit of a logical leap there by adding the word always. Care to elaborate?

[Brother Adam]

[quote name='burnsspivey' date='Dec 9 2004, 04:32 PM'] You've made a bit of a logical leap there by adding the word always. Care to elaborate? [/quote]
[quote]perfect passive participle[/quote]

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Dec 9 2004, 03:52 PM'] perfect passive participle [/quote]
"It has been written in the past and is still in force" != "It has been written in the past, was always written and is still in force"

[Benedict]

[quote]The Greek perfect tense denotes a present state resulting from a past action, with both the past action (what happened) and the present state (as things are now) in view. ... [b]It must be emphasized that when this Greek tense is used, the state of being which follows on the action is continual. The state of being started with the action and does not end at any time. The action was perfect and lasting if this tense is used.[/b][/quote]

[url="http://www.catholicexchange.com/vm/PFarticle.asp?vm_id=64&art_id=18941&sec_id=35720"]http://www.catholicexchange.com/vm/PFartic...41&sec_id=35720[/url]

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Benedict' date='Dec 10 2004, 02:00 AM']
[url="http://www.catholicexchange.com/vm/PFarticle.asp?vm_id=64&art_id=18941&sec_id=35720"]http://www.catholicexchange.com/vm/PFartic...41&sec_id=35720[/url] [/quote]
That still doesn't offer enough of an explanation -- i.e. it doesn't give the 'always' part.

The Greek perfect tense denotes a present state [b]resulting from a past action[/b], with both the past action (what happened) and the present state (as things are now) in view. ... It must be emphasized that when this Greek tense is used, the state of being which [b]follows on the action [/b]is continual. The state of being started with the action and does not end at any time. The action was perfect and lasting if this tense is used.

[Guest Aluigi]

so what it does prove is that Mary didn't sin at all after the Virgin birth at least. I agree there.

the other instances, it has been written, since the time it was originally written. just like you have been favorable (continuously) since the time you originally existed. I will concede that it does not 100% assure that from the moment of conception she was without sin, but it does proove that at one point before the annunciation she stopped sinning and did not have original sin anymore either and she stayed that way the rest of her life. we say it happened at the very conception, basing ourselves on the ECF theory of Mary as the New Eve.

[Benedict]

[quote name='burnsspivey' date='Dec 10 2004, 09:20 AM'] That still doesn't offer enough of an explanation -- i.e. it doesn't give the 'always' part. [/quote]
You are disputing the 'always' before part, the 'always' after part, or the 'always' in total part?

It discusses the always after part, "[the state] does not end at any time".

The before part is a matter of faith but take a moment to think about it. Considering that we know from the tense that Mary was fully graced from the time prior to Gabriel's greeting and forever afterward, which moment makes the most sense for God to completely fill her with His grace? The most logical instance would be her conception.