Immaculate Conception

[InHisHands381]

With the feast of the Immaculate Conception being today/tomorrow (it's midnight ), I decided to post what I've been wondering about it. (Sorry if there's already a thread on this somewhere, I'm new here!)
I have a Protestant friend who simply argues up and down that Mary was not conceived without sin. I understand that the Immaculate Conception is a Catholic teaching and I completely believe it, but I had some difficulty defending it when speaking with my friend - I guess I believe it out of faith. Can anyone tell me where, how, and why the teaching originated and/or how I can explain it to someone who is not Catholic?

[Guest Aluigi]

The Angel Gabriel's words to Mary indicate Mary never commited sin

The Gospel according to St. Luke, Chapter I, Verse xxviii says:
ΚΑΙ ΕΙΣΕΛΘΩΝ ΠΡΟΣ ΑΥΤΗΝ ΕΙΠΕΝ ΧΑΙΡΕ ΚΕΧΑΡΙΤΩΜΕΝΗ Ο ΚΥΡΙΟΣ ΜΕΤΑ ΣΟΥ
And the angel being come in, said unto her: Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with thee: blessed art thou among women

the term in question, translated by St. Jerome as "full of grace" and by modern translators as "highly favored one" is this:
ΚΕΧΑΡΙΤΩΜΕΝΗ

greekbible.com says this is from the root ΧΑΡΙΤΟΩ {khar-ee-to'-o}, a verb meaning:
1) to make graceful 1a) charming, lovely, agreeable 2) to peruse with grace, compass with favour 3) to honour with blessings

ΚΕΧΑΡΙΤΩΜΕΝΗ is a perfect passive participle of that verb.
"The Greek perfect tense denotes the present state resultant upon a past action: " according to the Greek grammarian Gresham Machen. Examples of the perfect past participle:
[quote]QUOTE
The perfect is used in Matthew 4:4,7,10 ("it is written"). Literally translated, "It has been written in the past and is still in force." Hence, Jesus expresses the Continuing authority of God’s written law by using the perfect tense. The perfect tense is also found Matthew 16:19 ("…whatsoever thou shalt bind on earth shall be bound in heaven"). "Shall be bound in heaven" is a perfect passive participle (The Analytical Greek lexicon. Pg85). Jesus is telling Peter that what he (Peter) bound would have already been bound in heaven.[/quote]

This quote is from [url="http://www.biblequestions.org/archives/BQAR264.htm"]http://www.biblequestions.org/archives/BQAR264.htm[/url] Notice, ironically, the very next sentence says Peter was not the first pope laugh.gif...yeah, that's right, i'm not afraid to use Protestant Bible Scholars if they can provide insight into the scriptures. however, short refutation: we never said the pope can add something that wasn't already true in heaven. let's not debate this point, though, but stay on the Mary thing.

Therefore, when it is used in Luke 1:28, it means, you have been graced, favorable, agreeable, always and it is still so.

If at the moment one is sinning God does not favor them, then Mary could not have sinned and been always favored by God for her entire life every moment. this indirectly indicates she must either not have had original sin or been released from it very very early on in life, seconds after her creation at most I would say if she was to never commit any sin thus always being favorable to God. the best explanation is that of the Early Church Fathers, that she supplementally fulfills the reversal of the event of original sin by being the New Eve to Christ's New Adam. here's the clincher (it will only clinch it if you admit everything so far, up to the admittance that the Early Church was correct in labeling Mary the New Eve), at least in my opinion, for why Christ's merits were infused to her that she would be sinless at the moment of her creation.

The person of Eve was created out of the person of Adam who was created out of the earth.
The person of Mary was sinless of of the sinlessness of the person of Adam who came from Heaven.

[aloha918]

yeha what he said....

[InHisHands381]

Wow! Thanks. I'd heard something like that before, but I wasn't sure of the credibility of what I heard. It wasn't as well put as what you just provided! Thanks!

[thessalonian]

To compliment what he said, we should consider the parrellel between Mary and the Ark of the Covenant. The Ark is a foreshadowing of most of Catholic Marian theology.

If you look at 2 Sam 6 and Luke 1 God parallels Mary with the Ark of the covenant. David says "how can the ark come to me". Elizabeth says "how is it that the mother of my lord should come to me". David leaps and dances before the Ark, John the Baptist leaps before Mary within Elizabeth's womb. Mary stays with Elizabeth for three months. The ark stays with obemedon for 3 months. Both incidents happen in the hill country of Judah. Now the point of this is that the Ark was exceedingly pure. So was Mary.
Luke 1:43
"And how has it happened to me, that the MOTHER OF MY LORD would COME TO ME?
Samuel 6:9
So David was afraid of the LORD that day; and he said, "How can the ARK OF THE LORD COME TO ME?"


Luke 1:41
When Elizabeth heard Mary's greeting, the baby LEAPED in her womb; and Elizabeth was filled with the Holy Spirit.
2 Samuel 6:16
Then it happened as the ark of the LORD came into the city of David that Michal the daughter of Saul looked out of the window and saw King David LEAPING and dancing before the LORD; and she despised him in her heart.

Luke 1:56
And Mary stayed with her about THREE MONTHS, and then returned to her home.
2 Samuel 6:10-11
And David was unwilling to move the ark of the LORD into the city of David with him; but David took it aside to the house of Obed-edom the Gittite.
Thus the ark of the LORD remained in the house of Obed-edom the Gittite THREE MONTHS, and the LORD blessed Obed-edom and all his household.

Luke 1:39
Now at this time Mary arose and went in a hurry to the hill country, to a city of Judah,

Samuel 6:2
And David arose and went with all the people who were with him to Baale-judah, to bring up from there the ark of God which is called by the Name, the very name of the LORD of hosts who is enthroned above the cherubim.

The Ark is significant in many ways to the Jews. It contained the tablets, the staff of Aaron, and the Holy Bread (from Hebrews) which represent Christ.
Hebrews 9:4
which had the golden altar of incense and the gold covered ark of the covenant. This ark contained the gold jar of manna, Aaron's staff that had budded, and the stone tablets of the covenant.
The specifications of it were given by God. It was exceedingly pure such that if you touched it you would die, as Uriaha the Hittite did in 2 Sam 6, causing David's anger. It lead them in to battle, they prayed through it to God (Jos 7), it led them in to the promised land, etc. These foreshadowing have a parallel in the Catholic faith with regard to how we honor Mary. There is also Biblical significance in Rev 11,12 where John sees the Ark in the sky and next he sees a woman clothed with the sun and the moon at her feet. As to it's purity we see it as only fitting that God would choose a woman for his son and make her a special creation. Lot's more I could say on this but this is a brief summary of what I told you last week.

God bless

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='InHisHands381' date='Dec 8 2004, 01:08 AM'] With the feast of the Immaculate Conception being today/tomorrow (it's midnight ), I decided to post what I've been wondering about it. (Sorry if there's already a thread on this somewhere, I'm new here!)
I have a Protestant friend who simply argues up and down that Mary was not conceived without sin. I understand that the Immaculate Conception is a Catholic teaching and I completely believe it, but I had some difficulty defending it when speaking with my friend - I guess I believe it out of faith. Can anyone tell me where, how, and why the teaching originated and/or how I can explain it to someone who is not Catholic? [/quote]
Simple - it originated out of the flights of fancy of sinful, depraved men who delight in replacing, and indeed, making void, the Word of God, to be replaced by their traditions, which contradict the Scriptures.

[Guest Aluigi]

back up what you say and/or dispute what i said. otherwise, say nothing.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Dec 8 2004, 03:55 PM'] Simple - it originated out of the flights of fancy of sinful, depraved men who delight in replacing, and indeed, making void, the Word of God, to be replaced by their traditions, which contradict the Scriptures. [/quote]
Icthus I thought you left phatmass.

Perhaps changing your signature line is in order....

[dairygirl4u2c]

Kil, don't change the subject. No, seriously though you have a good point.


Yeah, it could be what ICTHUS said. Seriously it could be. I mean look at how hard they try to justify the teaching, only by essentially saying it's possible. They can't really prove it.

Just know what you said, it takes faith, faith that's not necessarily guided by any definitive proof. (that's pretty much the essence of all Catholic Church issues)

Edited December 8, 2004 by dairygirl4u2c

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Not changing the subject, just stating something I've been meaning to say for a while.... and looky it worked!

[megamattman1]

you go girl

[ICTHUS]

Kilroy is a girl?

[Kilroy the Ninja]

Yeah, married to Don John, became a moderator when I stayed home to take care of the baby Ninja Crusader...

But I'll take it as a compliment that you didn't know.

[Guest Aluigi]

if you have faith in the Bible, and you believe the words of the Angel Gabriel: you best be believin an immaculate conception.

[phatcatholic]

if i could add a small point to thessalonian's post, the reason that the parallel between mary and the ark is so important is b/c the holiness and sanctity of the ark mirrors the holiness and sanctity of Mary. the ark had to be a pure vessel b/c it contained the very word of God. in similar fasion, Mary is a pure vessel b/c she was chosen to contain the Word of God, Jesus Christ. the following, from [url="http://home.nyc.rr.com/mysticalrose/marian4.html"][b]this article[/b][/url], summarizes this point rather nicely:[list]
[*]We also see a type of Mary's sinlessness in the holiness of the Ark of the Covenant. The original ark was clearly a holy vessel. God meticulously outlined the construction (Ex 25:10-22) and the Holy Spirit actually inspired the artisan who formed it (31:2-3)! It was made from the finest, purest materials and consecrated to the service of God in the Tabernacle. The Ark had to be perfect and holy, worthy to bear the awesome Presence of the Holy One of Israel. It was so holy only a few could touch it (Num 4:15, 2 Sam 6:2-7).

If such an inanimate object could be so holy, how much more holy must Mary have been? In order to be a worthy vessel for the all-holy God, she had to be utterly holy. Like the original ark, she was set apart for that sacred task from the beginning of her existence. This is why Jesus preserved her from contracting original sin by applying the sin-cleansing merits of His Precious Blood to her beforehand.

Christ is the Holy One of Israel in the flesh. The Bible tells us over and over again about the utter Holiness of God. It even says that His name is "Holy" (Is 57:15); and in Hebrew thought ones name expressed ones essence. If God is Holiness Itself, how could He dwell in an unholy vessel? How could the One Who demands holiness from His people (Lev 19:2) and particularly from the priests who minister before Him (Ex 28:6) dwell for nine months in an unholy woman!

Finally, the Bible says "Holiness becometh thine house, O Lord" (Ps 93:5). Mary was the Lord's "house" for nine months! If holiness becometh God's house, how could Mary not be holy? She, like the Tabernacle of old, had to be utterly pure and holy, completely sanctified and consecrated to the Lord, for she was to be the living Holy of holies, the sacred dwelling of the all-holy God.

Taken together, these passages present a powerful biblical case for Mary's sinlessness. God promised to make her the enemy of the father of sin, the angel declared her to be embued with spiritual life, and her role in bearing the Holy One necessitated that she be utterly holy, like the ark or Tabernacle of old.
[/list]
i hope this helps

pax christi,
phatcatholic