cmotherofpirl Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 MUSLIMS AND CHRISTIANS ADORE THE ONE GOD Pope John Paul II -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Like Christians and Jews, Muslims look upon Abraham as a model of submission to God's will and know that in God we find our origin and end At the General Audience of Wednesday, 5 May, the Holy Father spoke about religious dialogue with Islam. While mentioning the point on which Christians and Muslims most differ, the mystery of the Trinity, the Pope also said that the two traditions "have a long history of study, philosophical and theological reflection, literature and science, which have left their mark on Eastern and Western cultures", and "are called in one spirit of love to defend and always promote human dignity, moral values and freedom". Here is translation of his catechesis, which was the 12th in the series on God the Father and was given in Italian. 1. Continuing our discussion of inter-religious dialogue, today we will reflect on dialogue with Muslims, who "together with us adore the one, merciful God" (Lumen gentium, n. 16; cf. CCC, n. 841). The Church has a high regard for them, convinced that their faith in the transcendent God contributes to building a new human family based on the highest aspirations of the human heart. Muslims, like Jews and Christians, see the figure of Abraham as a model of unconditional submission to the decrees of God (Nostra aetate, n. 3). Following Abraham's example, the faithful strive to give God his rightful place in their lives as the origin, teacher, guide and ultimate destiny of all beings (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, Message to Muslims for the end of Ramadan, 1417/1997). This human docility and openness to God's will is translated into an attitude of prayer which expresses the existential condition of every person before the Creator. Christians and Muslims believe in the same God, the one God Along the path marked out by Abraham in his submission to the divine will, we find his descendant, the Blessed Virgin Mary, Mother of Jesus, who is also devoutly invoked by Muslims, especially in popular piety. 2. We Christians joyfully recognize the religious values we have in common with Islam. Today I would like to repeat what I said to young Muslims some years ago in Casablanca: "We believe in the same God, the one God, the living God, the God who created the world and brings his creatures to their perfection" (Insegnamenti, VIII/2, [1985], p. 497). The patrimony of revealed texts in the Bible speaks unanimously of the oneness of God. Jesus himself reaffirms it, making Israel's profession his own: "The Lord our God, the Lord is one" (Mk 12:29; cf. Dt 6:4-5). This oneness is also affirmed in the words of praise that spring from the heart of the Apostle Paul: "To the king of ages, immortal, invisible, the only God, be honour and glory for ever and ever. Amen'"(1 Tm 1:17). We know that in the light of the full Revelation in Christ, this mysterious oneness cannot be reduced to a numerical unity. The Christian mystery leads us to contemplate in God's substantial unity the persons of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit: each possesses the divine substance whole and indivisible, but each is distinct from the other by virtue of their reciprocal relations. 3. Their relations in no way compromise the oneness of God, as the Fourth Lateran Council explains (1215): "Each of the persons is that supreme reality, viz., the divine substance, essence or nature.... It does not generate, is not begotten and does not proceed" (DS 804). The Christian doctrine on the Trinity, confirmed by the Councils, explicitly rejects any form of "tritheism" or "polytheism". In this sense, i.e., with reference to the one divine substance, there is significant correspondence between Christianity and Islam. However, this correspondence must not let us forget the difference between the two religions. We know that the unity of God is expressed in the mystery of the three divine Persons. inDouche, since he is Love (cf. 1 Jn 4:8), God has always been a Father who gives his whole self in begetting the Son, and both are united in a communion of love which is the Holy Spirit. This distinction and compenetration (perichoresis) of the three divine Persons is not something added to their unity but is its most profound and characteristic expression. Christians and Muslims must strive for peace and justice On the other hand, we should not forget that the Trinitarian monotheism distinctive of Christianity is a mystery inaccessible to human reason, which is nevertheless called to accept the revelation of God's inmost nature (cf. CCC, n. 237). 4. Interreligious dialogue which leads to a deeper knowledge and esteem for others is a great sign of hope (Pontifical Council for Interreligious Dialogue, Message to Muslims for the end of Ramadan, 1418/1998). The Christian and Muslim traditions both have a long history of study, philosophical and theological reflection, literature and science, which have left their mark on Eastern and Western cultures. The worship of the one God, Creator of all, encourages us to increase our knowledge of one another in the future. In today's world where God is tragically forgotten, Christians and Muslims are called in one spirit of love to defend and always promote human dignity, moral values and freedom. The common pilgrimage to eternity must be expressed in prayer, fasting and charity, but also in joint efforts for peace and justice, for human advancement and the protection of the environment. By walking together on the path of reconciliation and renouncing in humble submission to the divine will any form of violence as a means of resolving differences, the two religions will be able to offer a sign of hope, radiating in the world the wisdom and mercy of that one God who created and governs the human family. To the English-speaking pilgrims and visitors the Holy Father said: I extend a special welcome to the members of the Catholic Biblical Federation who are celebrating the Federation’s 30th anniversary, and I encourage you to do all you can to ensure that the inexhaustible riches of God's word become ever more truly the heart of the prayer and daily lives of Christ's faithful. Upon all the English-speaking pilgrims and visitors, especially those from England, the Philippines, Japan and the United States of America, I invoke the joy and peace of the risen Saviour. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Taken from: L'Osservatore Romano Weekly Edition in English 12 May 1999, page 11 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Adeodatus Posted October 17, 2003 Share Posted October 17, 2003 Following on from what others have said... The belief that Muslims worship the same God as us is not new. In AD 1076, Pope Gregory VII wrote to Anzir, the Muslim King of Mauritania (North Africa?) who had freed Christian prisoners and promised to liberate others: 'God, the Creator of all, without whom we cannot do or even think anything that is good, has inspired to your heart this act of kindness. He who enlightens all people coming into the world (John 1.9) has enlightened your mind for this purpose. Almighty God, who desires all people to be saved (1 Timothy 2.4) and none to perish, is well pleased to approve in us most of all that besides loving God, human beings love others, and do not do to others anything they do not want to be done unto themselves (Matthew 7.14). We and you must show in a special way to the other nations an example of this charity, for we believe and confess one God, although in different ways, and praise and worship him daily as the Creator of all ages and the ruler of this world. (...) God knows that we love you purely for His honour and that we desire your salvation and glory, both in the present and the future life. And we pray in our heart and with our lips that God may lead you to the abode of happiness, to the bosom of the holy patriarch Abraham, after long years of life here on earth.' There you have it. The Church, in the person of the Successor of Peter, has spoken to confirm our faith. Who shall deny it? B) And besides, it's ridiculous to suggest that Muslims and Jews could possibly be worshipping a different God. There is no different God!!!! There is only the one true living God, and even if non-Christians have a poorer grasp of Him, they still worship Him and Him alone. It is also unwise and unsafe to pretend that the Second Vatican Council has not made any infallible pronouncements. Some of the Constitutions coming from it are DOGMATIC Constitutions, and hence, infallibly defined. If we believe otherwise then we are saying Christ is a liar when He said about the Church, 'The gates of Hades shall never overcome it'. PS Muslims do believe that Jesus is the 'Word of God', but they do not believe in His divinity. They misunderstand our belief in the Trinity to mean that Jesus and Mary (!) are Gods alongside the Creator. Which is why they reject it. Of course, we'd reject such a ridiculous Trinity too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 "And besides, it's ridiculous to suggest that Muslims and Jews could possibly be worshipping a different God. There is no different God!!!! There is only the one true living God, and even if non-Christians have a poorer grasp of Him, they still worship Him and Him alone" This is absurd, I guess the Romans who wished to put Caligula's statue in the Temple were worshiping the one God, as were the Vikings when they sacked churches and launched there ships over virgins( killingthem in a most horrid way) or the Aztecs when they cut out still living human hearts or drowned babies in offering to their gods, PLEASE there are False gods there are demons, many worship that which is not the Lord. Next did anyone say that the Jews didn't worship the one God? I don't recall that so that is neither here nor there. is also unwise and unsafe to pretend that the Second Vatican Council has not made any infallible pronouncements. Some of the Constitutions coming from it are DOGMATIC Constitutions, and hence, infallibly defined. If we believe otherwise then we are saying Christ is a liar when He said about the Church, 'The gates of Hades shall never overcome it'." I am well aware of VII's documents ( I have read them all) Very few are Dogmatic, and those that are must be understood as complimentary to not as above previous councils. If you would like I will post where the successor of peter said that the muslims where pagans and worship demons, but I really didn't think that was needed, I guess I was wrong. " Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted October 18, 2003 Share Posted October 18, 2003 Here you go this is Urban the second calling for the first crusade at the Council of Clermont: "All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago. Let those who for a long time, have been robbers, now become knights. Let those who have been fighting against their brothers and relatives now fight in a proper way against the barbarians. Let those who have been serving as mercenaries for small pay now obtain the eternal reward. Let those who have been wearing themselves out in both body and soul now work for a double honor. Behold! on this side will be the sorrowful and poor, on that, the rich; on this side, the enemies of the Lord, on that, his friends. Let those who go not put off the journey, but rent their lands and collect money for their expenses; and as soon as winter is over and spring comes, let hem eagerly set out on the way with God as their guide." So there you go the Succesor of Peter saying that the muslims worship demons. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geetarplayer Posted October 18, 2003 Author Share Posted October 18, 2003 You know what'd be pretty cool? If you went to Heaven and the first thing you saw was Jesus and Mohammad hangin' out together. B) -Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 No, not really. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 thats not to say I don't hope mohommed was saved, I just don't think he was the kind of man that I would like to see "hanging" with the Lord. lets leave that for the martyrs and great saints, most of us are not worthy of such a thing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geetarplayer Posted October 19, 2003 Author Share Posted October 19, 2003 thats not to say I don't hope mohommed was saved, I just don't think he was the kind of man that I would like to see "hanging" with the Lord. lets leave that for the martyrs and great saints, most of us are not worthy of such a thing. What you say upsets me, Don John. I think that all people who go to Heaven will get to meet Jesus face to face, talk with Him and, yes, just hang out with Him. In Heaven, we are able to experience God's love to the fullest. Everyone is worthy of God's love. Why are only the saints worthy of meeting Jesus? -Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 Nobody is worthy, but if you get to heaven you will BE a Saint. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 Do you think the Pope was being infallible when he said muslims worshipped demons? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geetarplayer Posted October 19, 2003 Author Share Posted October 19, 2003 Here you go this is Urban the second calling for the first crusade at the Council of Clermont: "All who die by the way, whether by land or by sea, or in battle against the pagans, shall have immediate remission of sins. This I grant them through the power of God with which I am invested. O what a disgrace if such a despised and base race, which worships demons, should conquer a people which has the faith of omnipotent God and is made glorious with the name of Christ! With what reproaches will the Lord overwhelm us if you do not aid those who, with us, profess the Christian religion! Let those who have been accustomed unjustly to wage private warfare against the faithful now go against the infidels and end with victory this war which should have been begun long ago. Let those who for a long time, have been robbers, now become knights. Let those who have been fighting against their brothers and relatives now fight in a proper way against the barbarians. Let those who have been serving as mercenaries for small pay now obtain the eternal reward. Let those who have been wearing themselves out in both body and soul now work for a double honor. Behold! on this side will be the sorrowful and poor, on that, the rich; on this side, the enemies of the Lord, on that, his friends. Let those who go not put off the journey, but rent their lands and collect money for their expenses; and as soon as winter is over and spring comes, let hem eagerly set out on the way with God as their guide." So there you go the Succesor of Peter saying that the muslims worship demons. The Crusades were launched not because the Christians wanted to "bring truth to the non-Christians". It was because the corrupt Church leaders wanted more land. They wanted to capture the Holy Land (which they were never able to fully do, by the way). Plus, the Crusades did not so much bring truth to the non-Christians as much as it brought MURDER and TORTURE to the non-Christians, which is never a very Christian thing to do. The speech that you quoted Urban as saying was not so much a Church doctrine as it was a propogandic war ralley. -Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 Where did you learn this "version" of history? THe Holy Land which had been CHRISTIAN was being taken over by the Muslims. We were rescuing christian lands FROM invasion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
geetarplayer Posted October 19, 2003 Author Share Posted October 19, 2003 I've never heard that the Holy Roman Empire in the early 1000's ever extended to Palestine. -Mark Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 (edited) Cmom - I think tis is more likely infallable than the letter cited above Urban II was speaking as the Pope and addressing the whole Church. Geetarplayer-- There is really no point in discussing this with yo, your opionin shows a deep lack of understanding of the actual history of the world, and is also heresy. Crusades were called infalllably by infallable council, even above UrbanII called the Whole Church as the Pope to defend the Faith( all the marks of infallability) more than that he granted indulgences based on going to the Crusades, to say that they were evil or even not desired by God is sheer unadulterated heresy. The Byzantine Empire owned Palestine as the eastern Roman empire for 500years or so before the Muslims took it more than tht the Seljuk turks were murdering and robbing and enslaving Christian Pilgrims to the Holy Land, The Emperor of Byzantium asked the Pope for aid, as he was the protector of Christians in the west and couldn't defeat the turks in open battle( In 1076 Manzikrit{ I think thats the proper spelling} finished any hope of that. So Urban was answering a Christian kings Call for help. How dare you say those men who went were anything but men trying to Honor GTod and defend Christiandom. If the Crusades had not have happened then all of us would likely be praying east 5 times a day. do some research before saying such heretical things. Edited October 19, 2003 by Don John of Austria Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted October 19, 2003 Share Posted October 19, 2003 Urban was calling a crusade, not defining theology concerning muslim beliefs. I'll stick with the teaching that actually applies to the subject in question. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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