Jews, Christians, And Muslims

[cmotherofpirl]

How is this a Protestant concept?

Yes the Jews are our elders in the Faith, but Jesus is the Messiah and the fulfillment of Judiasm, whether they believe it or not. They too are called to be baptised just like everyone else. My point was that Islam is not Judaism and their theology is very different from Judeo-Christian theology.

The Old Testement proclaims the fullfilment of a Messiah as God's promise to Abraham, Jacob, etc... The New Testement proclaims the Good News that Jesus is the Messiah and the birth of the Church directed by the Holy Spirit.

Islam, which literally means ''The Right Path," proclaims the Koran as God's final revelation with other faiths (including Christianity and Judiasm) as being under the influence of The Infidel - that's why they call Christians and Jews infidels. Plus the Koran has nothing to do with Messianic prophecy and Messianic fulfillment that is Jesus Christ.

Jesus is not a pre-requisite for believing and worshiping God only if that person is ignorant of Jesus or the message of the Gospel - not folks who knowingly reject and blaspheme Christ and the Holy Spirit.

God Bless :D

Fundamentalists (some of them) think the Muslims worship a moon god.

Muslims worship the God of Abraham Isaac and Jacob, the same as we do.

Their theology is incorrect and deficient, but they worship the same creator of the universe.

THe mormons have the same problems.

[Don John of Austria]

Okay first the mormans DO NOT WORSHIP THE ONE GOD AT ALL! they don't even believe in One God they believe in lots of gods , they even believe you can become a god, so lets lieve their Pagan doctrins out of this debate.

Ironmonk it was a Catholic Theologian that said they had butchered God not me( I just can't remember who it was), However If you really want to get picky about it the Church declared at Trent that the Turks( who were and are Mohommedians) were godless so think about that one fora while.

Cmom

You may only come to the Father through Christ. That is Catholic DOGMA, and not a Protestant concept at all. Anyone who is saved by ordinary means( the Church) or extraordinary means( which I sincerly pray exist) come to salvation through Christ and his brides salvific power.

[Chrysologus]

Hm, it actually does appear that Don John has liberalized just a little bit, although I still say he actually makes ironmonk look liberal!

Muslims butcher God? That seems pretty harsh, and I would say innacurate. Granted they don't believe in his Trinity, but besides that, I'm not aware of any theological differences in which adjectives are used to describe him. Every church council has to be examined in its historical context. Calling the Muslims (I refuse to use a term they find offensive) "godless" was an aspect of the times, not a dogma! If it was a doctrine, then Vatican II must be a robber synod, because it contradicts that assertion.

[M.SIGGA]

Muslims butcher God? That seems pretty harsh, and I would say innacurate.

I think it is a sign of the times when Christians esp. Catholics fear speaking the truth about salvation in Jesus Christ. I just find it funny that in almost 2000 years of the Church's history Islam was considered wrong and now there is an underline feeling that the TRUTH can be compromised. There is One True God (Father, Son, HS) PERIOD - there are no exceptions!!! They might believe they worship the same God Christians and Jews do, but they reject the Trinity, which doesn't make them that different from Mormons and Arians (the Early Church heresy that denied the Trinity). The great Catholic appoligist Hillaire Belloc refered to Islam as one of the greatest Heresies of the Church b/c it revieved the Arian heresy that the Church tried so desperately to stomp out. We need to recognize heresy when we see it, and try to evangelize those who dwell in it - not say that it's ok b/c God hears their prayers just the same. That concept is only for the ignorant and every single Muslim is not ignorant of the Gospel.

It is also unfair to compare the Jewish concept of God with the Muslim concept of Allah b/c the Jews dont' believe the Messiah has come yet and they do not reject the concept of a Messiah - however this still doesn't excuse them from rejecting Jesus. Muslims believe it is insulting that Allah would stoop so low to dwell among men, therefore rejecting the purpose of a Messiah. Islam is based soley on works - the 5 pillars of Islam - and Judeo-Christianity is a religion of Faith and Works therefore their view is completely different than the Judeo Christian understanding.

And the descendants of Ishmael are not meant to be the Islamic people, maybe the Arab people though, but that's not definite either - They were a Middle Eastern tribe much like the tribe if Israel and many others that lived near and around the Arabian Peninsula. The Bible speaks of Ishmaelites numerous times in the Old Testement, for example they were the tribe that bought and sold Joseph into Egypt - and this was long before Muhammed's 'assumption into heaven.' The Koran calls Ishmael the chosen son of Abraham, but keep telling yourself it's not real !!!! Isaac was the chosen One b/c 1. the Bible says so and 2. Jesus (the Savior, remember Him) would come from his seed. Many Arab people might be the descendants of Ishmael, but they are not the chosen people. The first converts to Islam were a mixture of Christians, Jews, pagans, Zoarastrians, not soley Ishmaelites. The Koran's claim should not be an excuse to say that Muslims worship the same God we (Christians and Jews) do.

God Bless :D

[cmotherofpirl]

Cmom

You may only come to the Father through Christ. That is Catholic DOGMA, and not a Protestant concept at all. Anyone who is saved by ordinary means( the Church) or extraordinary means( which I sincerly pray exist) come to salvation through  Christ and his brides salvific power.

The part that is fundamentalistic is saying that the muslims worship a different God.

THey do not.

[PedroX]

Chrysologus,

The Council of Trent was an infallible council, how can they be right only in context?

The context that changed was the understanding of the word "godless". It used to be recognized that if you didn't believe in God, that you were godless, regardless of how many gods they may believe in, they don't believe in the only one who counts.

Whether or not Allah is a distorted view of Yaweh is not really the most important point. The most important point is that muslims reject God and His Holy Church. I personally view them as heretics, becuase Mohammed took God and twisted Him in to his (Mohammed's) own image.

peace...

[Anna]

You're thinking of a different passage, Anna. Jesus also said at one time, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one can come to the Father except through me."

Oh yeah! Thanks, Dave...I'm having a blonde day... ya know what they say about ignorance being bliss!

Pax Christi. <><

[cmotherofpirl]

In general, anybody who twists God is a heretic.

But there is a difference between twisting the doctrine yourself, or believing what your church, family and culture teaches from birth.

One is formal, one material.

THe unitarians are christians who do not believe God is a trinity, but they do believe in the same God as we do.

[EcceNovaFacioOmni]

"The Church regards with esteem also the Moslems. They adore the

one God, living and subsisting in Himself, merciful and all-powerful,

the Creator of heaven and earth, who has spoken to men; they take

pains to submit wholeheartedly to even His inscrutable decrees, just as

Abraham, with whom the faith of Islam takes great pleasure in linking

itself, submitted to God. Though they do not acknowledge Jesus as

God, they revere Him as a prophet. They also honor Mary, His virgin

mother; at times they even call on her with devotion. In addition,

they await the day of judgement when God will render their deserts to

all those who have been raised up from the dead. Finally, they value

the moral life and worship God especially through prayer, almsgiving

and fasting."

From the Vatican II Documents

I think that settles it.

[Don John of Austria]

I don't think so at all, which document, almost none of VII is infallable.

[cmotherofpirl]

Wrong.

While every sentence in every document might not be considered infallible , the Second Vatican Council documents contained infallible teachings.

[Don John of Austria]

Little if any new theology was made at VII the only infallable teachings where those that had already been declared in previously infallable settings.

[cmotherofpirl]

Dogma is never new , but explanations can become clearer, more fleshed out, and more precise.

[Don John of Austria]

There is nothing more "precise" than Trent it was crafted specificaly for Precision during the counterreformation. VII is anything but Precise, it is muddy and open to all kinds of misinterpretation namely ANY interretation that contradicts a previous Council. And yes Dogma is often New. try looking up Nicea, or Chalceadon.

[Don John of Austria]

Or would you prefer it is newly revealed or newly defined?