Job

[Mary's Knight, La]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Dec 6 2004, 11:20 AM'] But we know since God is good, then He wouldn't do it. [/quote]
i think your missing his point though i'm not sure if i agree with him yet. his point is that the fact that God isn't slaying them is what makes it good to not slay them.

[cmotherofpirl]

If God is the ultimate Good, I can't see Him suddenly deciding all blondes are bad, go kill them. It wouldn't be logical because God is the author of logic.

[Don John of Austria]

What ever God does is Good, period, you're putting the cart before the horse, if he does it it is Good by definition.

Edited December 7, 2004 by Don John of Austria

[Theoketos]

I think what you phazzan are asking, and correct me if I am wrong, is whether or not I would trade the death of my family and loss of all comfort for a stronger faith as Job did.

I hope the answer is yes, but I am not sure if I would take it like Job did. Faith is better then a temporary life. And I would gladly see my sons die instead of sin. I want to see every die and rise to eternal life.


[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Dec 6 2004, 09:53 PM'] If God is the ultimate Good, I can't see Him suddenly deciding all blondes are bad, go kill them. It wouldn't be logical because God is the author of logic. [/quote]
CMOM just came up with the cure for Nominalism.

And like the Mom in the book of Maccabees I would give my sons over to death instead of having them abandone their faith.

Also, because God gave Jesus, our (and our childern's) suffering has meaning. Also, this life is not the last thing. So I would find joy in my mourning of my Childern (I hope) as I have with the loss of many of my family members.

[Theoketos]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 6 2004, 11:56 PM'] What ever God does is Good, period, you're putting the cart before the horse, if he does it it is Good by definition. [/quote]
Careful that you do not become Ockham

Would you agree to the qualification that God does only what is good, and what is good is always and must always be good?

[Don John of Austria]

Since everything that God does is good by virtue of Him having done it, and because all that God does is good and because God IS ( outside the confines of time) what He does is and always will be good. So yes I would agree to that in the manner in which i just did.

[Theoketos]

I agree, but I am having a hard time coining a good pharse to gaurd against nominalism( N.B. I do not think that you are saying anything nominalistic)

How this relates to phazzan's question is this:

God, allowing for thier lives to end, is not the author of evil.

It seems to me that you, phazzan, are arguing that the only reason that lives lost are meaningful in a good way is because God took them. And on top of that, the only reason God allowed death was for a stronger faith, which seems like a bad bargin. (I think that we already addressed the previous issue of the value of this life versus the value of faith.)

Thus, because God took the lives, and God only does good, the evil act becomes a good act, because God did it.

This is not the case in Job, but if I lost you let me know, and I will try and explain better. But I have to wrap my head around this first, so that I can become more clear.

Good question Phazzan.

Don what do you think?

[Don John of Austria]

I am tired, I will have to think on how to put this when my mind is working better.

[God Conquers]

God only does good because by nature He IS good.
God's nature doesn't change.
Therefore, the nature good never changes.

So what is good and evil does not change because God does not change, and yet every action God takes is good.

You're right about the "wrapping you head" bit.

How do you say that God always does good without binding Him to an outside force on the one hand or bowing to nominalism on the other?

[Phazzan]

I don't understand. God by definition is good, there is no evil in Him. However, Satan exists therefore evil exists, yet God allows Satan to roam free in this world causing all sorts of destruction, pain and suffering. My concern is, Satan can do nothing without God's permission, so in a sense it seems reasonable to think Satan is merely God's puppet, doing the things God would do but can't because it's not in His nature. Therefore, for God to allow evil to exist evil must serve a purpose, and that must be to bring about a greater good, otherwise God wouldn't allow it. So when I hear people question why does God allow such evil in this world, I often here people relate their responses to Job, and how such evil befell him yet his faith was restored. That was my understanding of the book of Job, that God had Satan take away everything Job loved and cared about to test his faith, and he answered that test, yet lost his loved one's in the process. In my weak faith, I hope God wouldn't test me like that.

[Don John of Austria]

Pazzan-- I really don't have tome to give you an adequate response but let me begin and I will try to Pick up later, or perhaps some one else can conclude. First all that God created was Good as God created it, so at the moment of his creation Lucifer was Good, he was at that moment created with Free Will, which is also Good, he chose useing that Will to defy God, to rebel, to make war on God. This act is a corruption of his purpose. Evil is a corruption of Good so Lucifer by corrupting the Good that was his purpose, became Evil.

[quote]. However, Satan exists therefore evil exists, yet God allows Satan to roam free in this world causing all sorts of destruction, pain and suffering. My concern is, Satan can do nothing without God's permission, so in a sense it seems reasonable to think Satan is merely God's puppet, doing the things God would do but can't because it's not in His nature. [/quote]
However, while God " allows " satan to do things, it is not in the sense that God specificly allows each individual action of Satan but in the sense that God Willed Satan into existance and Willed that he have free will, therefore Satan, while excerciseing that will, corrupts Good, but it is not the Creation of anything Evil which Caused this, only the Creation of freedom which is Good.

[jasJis]

Phazzan,
You have to take a more philisophical approach and keep free will in mind. God created us to freely love Him because He freely loves us. If there is nothing but God/Good, we have no choice but to choose God/Good. The story of Eden is that we can freely live with God, but we can control our destiny and turn away from God. If God is really giving us a choice, an alternative to God must exist. That is why God allows Evil to exist. If there are no significant choices we can freely and effectively choose, then we are just 'constructs' that are running a program like a computer or robot and we do not have the same dignity that God has. God gives us His Dignity because He values our free choice to Love Him so much. The fact that He doesn't force his Love on us also shows how much He really Loves us and how incredible His forgiveness is when we return to Him after choosing other than Him (sin/evil).

[Socrates]

With regards to earlier discussion on the goodness of God, I just think it needs to be clarified that the will of God is not arbitrary.

God is perfectly free and is not constrained to do good by something outside Himself, yet being all-Good, His own nature makes it impossible for him to do or command that which is evil.

For instance, God couldn't, in a perverse mood, decide to change the commandments to Thou shalt worship false gods, Thou shalt kill, Thou shalt commit adultery, Thou shalt steal, etc.

The law of God, reflected in the natural law is unchanging and reflects His goodness. It is not just an arbitrary set of laws.
Whatever God does or commands is good, but these will always reflect the Goodness of His nature.

[Don John of Austria]

Socrates-- first it is excedingly Dangerous to use the word impossible in relation to God, God CAN do whatever God wants to do. He most certianly Could Change the commandments if He so desired but He will not because of His relation to linear time which I will adress in a bit.

Secondly, God certianly does reflect that which is Good but what is GOod is So because God has made it so, There is no abstract Force of Good to which God Conforms, for instance God [i]could [/i] have made the Commandment " thou shalt kill all those with long sideburns" and then that would be Good to do, God "could" change or add that commandment to then ten we know but He will not.
We know that He will not because He is outside of time, HE does not experance lenear time so He is doing everything that He has everdone or ever will do, He atthis moment is Wiling Creation to Exist, at this moment He is willing that the Commandments be exactly what they are, God IS.

Got to go Finish this later.

[Socrates]

This is delving into some pretty deep philosophical/theological issues which can be a bit difficult to understand.

However, my point is that God's laws and what is "good" are not arbitrary things.
Perhaps I used poor wording in saying God "couldn't" change His commandments, as this might seem to imply a limitation on God's power.

God is Almighty, but He is also all-good, and all-just.
The goodness of God is not something extrinsic to Him but is part of His very being. (Of course, there are no seperate "parts" to God - the attributes of God are a human way of looking at Him.)

What I am trying to say is that the laws of God are not arbitrary things but reflect the intrinsic nature of God (which is God, not something outside of Him). And this is not merely because God is outside time.

Therefore, God would (I'll say would rather than could) never give silly or arbitrary rules of morality such as "Thou shalt kill all people with long sideburns" or "kill all blondes."

I remember from philosphy class way back the idea that God's laws of morality
is arbitrary as being a philosophical error (I think it was nominalism). I think St. Thomas deals with this somewhere. (Are there any good Thomists out there who can help me with this?)