Our Lady Of Angels Cathedral

[L-5]

I drove past the Our Lady of Angels Cathedral. I remember how there was a hoopla about how the statue of Our Lady made her look like an androgynous princess warrior, but I drove past there yesterday (I'll return to LA to actually go to the cathedral one day) and her hair was actually done in a pony tail. So they don't have her all radical-feminist after all.

[Chrysologus]

The "conservatives" overreacted. Big surprise.

[Ash Wednesday]

Great thread!

I'll be in Los Angeles on Halloween weekend, perhaps I will check the Cathedral out. I can appreciate it if others might be totally inspired by it and think it's absolutely gorgeous -- I have met some Catholics that feel that way.

I'm guessing my reaction to it will be quite mixed. I'm an artist, and I don't think the Church should always model after Baroque or Rococo. But Mary's gown still looks a little too Star Trek for me. And why do they have to have the I-Ching and other pre-Christian and pagan symbols on the bronze doors? Why?

I read this at the website:

Beginning at the bottom of the inner doors, Graham has sculpted in relief a grapevine, symbolizing the Church. Folded in the grapevine are 40 ancient symbols that represent pre-Christian images from Europe, Asia, Africa and North America. The images include the eagle, griffin, goose, Southwest Indian Flying Serpent, bee, hand, ostrich, dove, Chinese turtle, Samoan kava bowl, the Native American Chumash man, the dolphin, the Tree of Jesse, Tai Chi, and many others. The number 40 is a mystical number in Scripture from 40 years of the Israelites wandering in the desert, Jesus' 40 days in the desert, and His ascension 40 days after Easter, among others.

(It's not the "Tai Chi", which is a form of martial art, it is the I-Ching -- an Asian form of divination)

Perhaps they're trying to illustrate man's quest to find God and greater good over history.

My concern with this is that people will interpret it wrong and give people the wrong idea that permeates the Church today -- i.e. "do-it-yourself-religion" (sure, you go to Mass sometimes, but you're also really moved and inspired by Voodoo, so you dabble in that too!) and that all religions are equal and good before God. It all seems too new-agey to me.

But like you, I'd like to go see it for myself before I can have any real insights outside of speculation!

[Aloysius]

Down with the 'new age'!!!!!!!!

anyway, i cant see any reason they would have pagan symbols there

unless they showed them all like, less than Christ. Like the statue in Rome with the child Jesus using this pagan god as a footrest. that's cool. however, the I Ching seems a bit fishy to me. we gotta keep an eye out for new age stuff and denounce it when we find it.

[Anna]

There's no internet site where those of us who can't get to LA can see it?

At first, I thought you were talking about Mother Angelica's Church in AL, I think that's Our Lady of the Angels, too, isn't it?

But when you said Our Lady is sporting a pony tail and Star Trekky gown, I realized you were talking about the "left coast." :lol:

[Anna]

http://www.olacathedral.org/

Left Inner Door, beginning first row on left, top to bottom)

1. Goose

2. Southwest Indian Flying Serpent

3. Chumash Man

4. Peacock Barge

5. Griffin

6. Chinese Turtle

7. Ibis

8. Griffin

9. Fish

10. Hand of God

11. Eagle (St. John the Evangelist)

12. Dove

13. Bee

14. Celtic Serpents

15. Stag

16. Croatian Cross

17. Chumash Condor

18. Peacock

19. Falling Man

20. Tree of Jesse

(Right Inner Door, beginning first row, top to bottom)

21. Energy (soul)

22. Lion

23. Water

24. Lamb

25. Hand (listening symbol)

26. Chinese/Japanese Heaven Symbol

27. Pair of Ostriches

28. Rooster

29. Bull (St. Luke the Evangelist)

30. Trefoil (Celtic Trinity)

31. Dog

32. Sicilian Legs (regeneration symbol)

33. Bull

34. Serpent/Dragon

35. I Ching/Ti Chi

36. Samoan Kava Bowl

37. Foot

38. Celtic Monster

39. Raven Eating Man's Liver

40. Dolphin

The ornamental space above the pair of bronze doors contains the 8 foot image of Our Lady of the Angels. The modern figure is presented as a woman "clothed with the sun, with the moon under her feet" (Revelations 12:1). The halo shaft above her head shines God's light on her as the sun travels from east to west.

Mary does not wear the traditional veil. Her arms are bare, outstretched to welcome all. Her carriage is confident, and her hands are strong, the hands of a working woman. From the side can be seen a thick braid of hair down her back that summons thoughts of Native American or Latina women. Other characteristics, such as her eyes, lips and nose convey Asian, African and Caucasian features. Without the conventional regal trappings of jewels, crown or layers of clothing, she has a dignity that shines from within.

Originally, two bronzed angels were to be placed one on each side of Our Lady of the Angels. However, the first Spanish name for Los Angeles was El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora, Reina de los Angeles. Mary is Queen of Los Angeles, so the people in her city are her angels.

I think more like Star Wars, if this is the right statue...

[Dave]

I think the cathedral is just plain butt-ugly. Give me St. Patrick's in NYC or Notre Dame in Paris any day!

[Chrysologus]

A lot of old cathedrals have gargoyles, which are a pagan representation.

[Dave]

A lot of old cathedrals have gargoyles, which are a pagan representation.

There was a thread about that not too long ago. Actually, from what I can remember, gargoyles aren't meant to be pagan. You'd have to do a search for it because right now I'm just too lazy! :lol:

[BLAZEr]

Blech!!!! That whole Cathedral is probably the butt ugliest church I've ever been in. It looks like a tomb on the inside and its so backwards and weird shapen . . . the architect is the Spanish Deconstructionist Rafael Moneo. If you know about the deconstructionist movement you know that it's roots are Anti-Catholic and its art is an attempt to thwart the traditional meaning objects usually are intended to have.

Here is an interview with a friend of mine, Notre Dame Architecture Professor Duncan Stroik . . . he's not impressed with OLA either . . . http://www.losangelesmission.com/ed/articl...1998/0298cz.htm

[BLAZEr]

Mary does not wear the traditional veil. Her arms are bare, outstretched to welcome all. Her carriage is confident, and her hands are strong, the hands of a working woman. From the side can be seen a thick braid of hair down her back that summons thoughts of Native American or Latina women. Other characteristics, such as her eyes, lips and nose convey Asian, African and Caucasian features. Without the conventional regal trappings of jewels, crown or layers of clothing, she has a dignity that shines from within.

Ummm . . . "the hands of a working woman" Mary goes to the Carpentry shop? lol . . . what's that supposed to mean? Why didn't they put her in slacks and give her a briefcase and a cell phone . . . I wonder if that dignity that shines from within is Christ? or some other type dignity?

Are we sure that working woman Mary had time for a Child? What if she was on the pill so that her "fertility" wouldn't get in the way of her career?

Originally, two bronzed angels were to be placed one on each side of Our Lady of the Angels. However, the first Spanish name for Los Angeles was El Pueblo de Nuestra Señora, Reina de los Angeles. Mary is Queen of Los Angeles, so the people in her city are her angels.

Cool . . . are all the people in LA elevated to the Ranks of Angels? My aunt lives in LA does that mean she can see God's face? Well, maybe she's not a seraph . . . could she be a cherubim? Does that make Archbishop Cardinal Mahoney an Arch-Angel? If he's in Cardinal Red with wings does he look like a Cardinal (the bird)?

and if I move to the diocese of Los Angeles in order to become an angel, do I get to remain one everywhere else I go or do I get demoted back to ordinary mortal. And what if I fall? Is Mary the Queen of the Fallen Angels too?

Wow . . . what a Cathedral! There's enough material here for a monologue on the Tonight Show! Live from Burbank . . . I mean downtown LA . . . is Jay "Mahoney" Leno

[Ash Wednesday]

Why didn't they put her in slacks and give her a briefcase and a cell phone

Christianity has certainly appropriated a lot of things that were pagan in origin, gargoyles or what have you. The Book of Kells, an early manuscript of the Gospels has a lot of the pagan elements of style from Celtic ancestry. Even many of the customs we have at Christmas and Easter (which comes from the pagan goddess of spring, Oestre) have pagan origins.

To me it's a matter of purpose -- how it is carried off and how people will interpret it -- and in this case having all that on the door still just smacks to me as being new age given the context of how it is used. Ultimately my bone of contention isn't with the door itself, but what it represents to me -- the fact that relativism runs rampid in the Church today and the apparent lack of discipline and backbone to combat it.

Has anybody read "Ugly As Sin" by Michael S. Rose? It's a very interesting book and he addresses the relationship between architecture and worship.

By the way, great interview link there. Shouldn't a church be distinguishable from an office building? Very few of the people involved in this project were practicing Catholics, and none of the architects chosen were practicing Catholics. Not to sound harsh or discriminating -- but it leads to the question -- shouldn't one have a little concern about who is designing and building our places of worship?

Edited October 14, 2003 by Ash Wednesday

[Dave]

Has anybody read "Ugly As Sin" by Michael S. Rose? It's a very interesting book and he addresses the relationship between architecture and worship.

I sure have. It's an amesome book, and I just wish all Catholics could have access to it so that they'll see that the issue of church architecture is a BIGGIE!

I got the book for Christmas last year, and I finished it the same day.

[Anna]

Blech!!!!  That whole Cathedral is probably the butt ugliest church I've ever been in.  It looks like a tomb on the inside and its so backwards and weird shapen . . .  the architect is the Spanish Deconstructionist Rafael Moneo.  If you know about the deconstructionist movement you know that it's roots are Anti-Catholic and its art is an attempt to thwart the traditional meaning objects usually are intended to have.

Here is an interview with a friend of mine, Notre Dame Architecture Professor Duncan Stroik .  .  .  he's not impressed with OLA either . . . http://www.losangelesmission.com/ed/articl...1998/0298cz.htm

Wow, BLAZEr, so you know Duncan Stroik?!

I was once referred to him, as a little Catholic Church here was being closed and my then pastor was putting up the interior objects on ebay!

I was also given the name of a priest in the Chicago area...but my memory fails me...Phillip something, maybe? He purchased the altar for a Eucharistic Chapel they were building for his parishoners!

As far as the new Cathedral structure goes, all I can see is what is in the photgraphs. It seems cold and hard...but I've never been there, so that's just my *ahem, conservative overreactionary* opinion...

Geeeeeeeeeee, I wonder why this thread got bumped to the Debate Table?! :P

[PedroX]

Doesn't anybody read Vatican documents? There are architecture guidlines published (can't find a link right now) and this Cathedral blatantly disregards them.

Stroik is way cool, and I've often seen his placement at ND as a sign of hope for the school.

Anna, that pastor is Chicago is way cool. His big thing is "restoring the sacred". His parishioners donated gold, silver, and jewels from their jewelry to make a monstrance. Very cool. heres the link St. John Cantius