Unity Is Vital To The Church

[ironmonk]

Since Jesus and the Apostles taught that unity was so vital to the Church, what justifies man to leave the Church to start his own church?

Acts 20:30And from your own group, men will come forward perverting the truth to draw the disciples away after them.

2 Peter 3:15

And consider the patience of our Lord as salvation, as our beloved brother Paul, according to the wisdom given to him, also wrote to you,

16 speaking of these things as he does in all his letters. In them there are some things hard to understand that the ignorant and unstable distort to their own destruction, just as they do the other scriptures.

17 Therefore, beloved, since you are forewarned, be on your guard not to be led into the error of the unprincipled and to fall from your own stability.

1 Tim 3:15

But if I should be delayed, you should know how to behave in the household of God, which is the church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth.

St. John 14:16

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate 8 to be with you always,

17 the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you.

18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

2 Thess 2:15

Therefore, brothers, stand firm and hold fast to the traditions that you were taught, either by an oral statement or by a letter of ours.

John 1:42

Then he brought him to Jesus. Jesus looked at him and said, "You are Simon the son of John; you will be called Kephas" (which is translated Peter).

St. Matt 16:18

And so I say to you, you are Peter (Kephas), and upon this rock (Kephas) I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

19 I will give you the keys to the kingdom of heaven. 14 Whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

St. John 21:15

When they had finished breakfast, Jesus said to Simon Peter, "Simon, son of John, do you love me more than these?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Feed my lambs."

16 He then said to him a second time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" He said to him, "Yes, Lord, you know that I love you." He said to him, "Tend my sheep."

17 He said to him the third time, "Simon, son of John, do you love me?" Peter was distressed that he had said to him a third time, "Do you love me?" and he said to him, "Lord, you know everything; you know that I love you." (Jesus) said to him, "Feed my sheep."

Please meditate on these, and think deeply, because with something like eternity, is it worth the risk of being wrong?

We tend to shop around for the best deal on material things, we read things like Consumer Reports to see which brand makes the best widget....shouldn't we do the same with teachings of salvation? Salvation is something that we cannot afford to be wrong about. Shouldn't salvation be our number one priority?

With so many churches (34,000 and growing) all claiming to have the truth about God, what kind of litlus test can we give to these churches to find out who really has the truth? If a church does not have the answer to all questions about Christianity, then that church is not the One True Church.

We must look at historical facts. We must look at where we got Scripture. We must look at the first Christian writings.

Something to think about.... The Jews have been around for many thousands of years. They keep accurate historical records. Why is it that they Jews claim that the Catholic Church was the Church started on the Apostles by Jesus?

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[Trooper4DaHolyG]

I simply see it as this, on the surface I see no differences between our faith. We believe Jesus died on our sins, to forgive us of our sins. And accepting, this and accepting him is our pathway to heaven.

We are commanded to go forth and multiply, I am doing this and serving this role in my own Church. I am committed to it and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit I know I will flourish in it!

Love you all you crazy Christians! :D

[ironmonk]

I see no differences between our faith. We believe Jesus died on our sins, to forgive us of our sins. And accepting, this and accepting him is our pathway to heaven.

We are commanded to go forth and multiply, I am doing this and serving this role in my own Church. I am committed to it and through the guidance of the Holy Spirit I know I will flourish in it!

Love you all you crazy Christians!  :D

Something so important such as eternity - the salvation of our Souls - and most of all: Our Love For Christ ----- How can we allow ourselves to even accept partial truths. To love Christ is to Love the Full Truth... not partial truths.

I'm sorry, but the way you see it does not make sense.

How can you say that in light of Acts 20:30, 2 Peter 3:15, or 2 Thess. 2:15?

Only One Church has the Eucharist and the succession to the Apostles.

St. John 6:53

Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.

54 Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.

Only One Church can forgive sins.

St John 20:21

(Jesus) said to them again, "Peace be with you. As the Father has sent me, so I send you."

22 And when he had said this, he breathed on them and said to them, "Receive the holy Spirit.

23 Whose sins you forgive are forgiven them, and whose sins you retain are retained."

St Matt 18:17 (Jesus said) If he refuses to listen to them, tell the church. If he refuses to listen even to the church, then treat him as you would a Gentile or a tax collector.

Which is the Church? The Church that gave us the Canon of the Bible is the Church that Christ built, for not by the power of man can man wield authority to teach the Truth of God, but only by the Power of God is the One True Church able to wield such authority in Teaching.

St. John 14:16

And I will ask the Father, and he will give you another Advocate to be with you always, The Holy Spirit to guide the Church - Always.

17 the Spirit of truth, which the world cannot accept, because it neither sees nor knows it. But you know it, because it remains with you, and will be in you. The Holy Spirit guides the One True Church in the One Way that leads us to Christ

18 I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you.

St. Matt 28:18 Then Jesus approached and said to them, "All power in heaven and on earth has been given to me.

19 Go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the holy Spirit,

20 teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you. And behold, I am with you always, until the end of the age."

Christ is with the One True Church until the end of the age... Who are these disciples that the Apostles made?

Here are a couple names and quotes from them....

St. Clement of Rome - ordained to the Priesthood by Peter himself. Was a Pope, which all Christian bishops looked to him as the teaching authority of the Church.

"Through countryside and city [the apostles] preached, and they appointed their earliest converts, testing them by the Spirit, to be the bishops and deacons of future believers. Nor was this a novelty, for bishops and deacons had been written about a long time earlier. . . . Our apostles knew through our Lord Jesus Christ that there would be strife for the office of bishop. For this reason, therefore, having received perfect foreknowledge, they appointed those who have already been mentioned and afterwards added the further provision that, if they should die, other approved men should succeed to their ministry" (Letter to the Corinthians 42:4–5, 44:1–3 [A.D. 80]).

Ignatius of Antioch - Pupil of St. John the Apostle, Bishop of Antioch, thought to be the child that Jesus held up when Jesus said "Blessed be the children."

"Ignatius . . . to the church also which holds the presidency, in the location of the country of the Romans, worthy of God, worthy of honor, worthy of blessing, worthy of praise, worthy of success, worthy of sanctification, and, because you hold the presidency in love, named after Christ and named after the Father" (Letter to the Romans 1:1 [A.D. 110]).

"You [the church at Rome] have envied no one, but others you have taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force" (ibid., 3:1).

Hermas - Bishop of Philippi, Greece, and martyr. He was a Roman mentioned by St. Paul in his Epistle to the Romans.

"Therefore shall you [Hermas] write two little books and send one to Clement [bishop of Rome] and one to Grapte. Clement shall then send it to the cities abroad, because that is his duty" (The Shepherd 2:4:3 [A.D. 80]).

Irenaeus The writings of St. Irenaeus entitle him to a high place among the fathers of the Church, for they not only laid the foundations of Christian theology but, by exposing and refuting the errors of the gnostics, they delivered the Catholic Faith from the real danger of the doctrines of those heretics. He was probably born about the year 125, in one of those maritime provinces of Asia Minor where the memory of the apostles was still cherished and where Christians were numerous. He was most influenced by St. Polycarp who had known the apostles or their immediate disciples

"The blessed apostles [Peter and Paul], having founded and built up the church [of Rome] . . . handed over the office of the episcopate to Linus" (Against Heresies 3:3:3 [A.D. 189]).

There are major differences in all of the churches. 34,000 faiths - Only One Church has the full Truth.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

Edited October 12, 2003 by ironmonk

[Anna]

Trooper,

The picture that IronMonk is trying to paint for you, using Scripture, is that Jesus did inDouche establish One Church.

He prayed to the Father that we would remain One.

He foretold that some sects would splinter off, and attempt to "evangelize" others out of the One Church that He had established.

The Scriptures point out that Jesus founded His Church on Peter. He instructed Peter to tend the flock, to feed His lambs, gave to Peter the keys to the kingdom, and promised that the Holy Spirit would guide His One True Church. Your denomination cannot claim to possess the keys to the kingdom. They were not entrusted to you. Your pastors cannot claim to be able to bind and loosen on earth, and it will be bound or loosened in heaven. Ours can.

The verses above show that Jesus verbally instructed His Apostles to baptize (yes, even the little ones!), to absolve men of their sins, to feed us with His Body and Blood, to follow an earthly shepherd who would be charged with tending the entire flock, etc.

Then, IronMonk provided quotes from the writings of the Early Church Fathers, to show that the immediate successors of the Apostles were inDouche following that same Religion, administering the Sacraments (baptism, Holy Eucharist, Confession, etc.) and that they recognized an earthly authority, the Pope. This shows that the Early Church was inDouche, the One and only True Church, the Catholic Church.

We are truly a Scriptural Church, though we came about long before the New Testament was ever written.

Our Church is not traced back to the New Testament; the New Testament is traced back to our Church. We had been celebrating the Holy Mass and receiving the Sacraments for nearly 400 years before we compiled the Inspired Writings. It was the Catholic Church who decided which writings were inDouche, inspired by the Holy Ghost, and which were "apocrypha," or uninspired. How did the Church know this? Because she had Christ's guarantee that she is guided completely and fully by the Holy Spirit...Not as faulty individuals are we infallible, but as One Body, on matters of Faith and Morals, the Church cannot err. Therefore, we know the Scriptures to be True. They came from the bosom of "Holy Mother Church."

Do you think that if you began to embrace the Truths which Christ entrusted to His Church, the Holy Spirit would leave you????????????

This seems to be an almost unforgiveable sin, for it would mean that you don't trust the Holy Spirit. You may say that the Holy Spirit is guiding you, and I believe that He has guided you thus far, to PhatMass, to learn the Truth.

[cmotherofpirl]

I simply see it as this, on the surface I see no differences between our faith. We believe Jesus died on our sins, to forgive us of our sins. And accepting, this and accepting him is our pathway to heaven.

Looks can be decieving.

If you saw no differences you would accept the Church as founded by Peter as seen in scripture, and accept the current pope as the head of the Church.

You would be baptising your babies so they have entrance into the Kingdom.

You would be going to Mass and recieving the Body and Blood of Jesus at Communion.

You consider these unimportant?

[Paladin D]

Looks can be decieving.

I was about to say that. :o

[Katholikos]

I simply see it as this, on the surface I see no differences between our faith.

Therefore,

you see no difference between true and false, between right and wrong, between daylight and darkness, between life and death, between the teachings of Christ who was God, and the teachings of the men you prefer to believe and follow.

[Trooper4DaHolyG]

wow not the reaction i expected, but the responses are becoming quite stock standard. I believe my church has the fulness of truth behind it and I will not leave my church to follow something as blindly as this. I am not into taking fellow peoples direction I take God's he placed me in my church. One day you guys will understand this and hopefully grow a little bit more mature in your faith...

[jasJis]

Troop,

I understand your point. Anyone, if they are honest with themselves, should belong to a denomination that leads them best with Truth to know, love, and serve God. Catholics that are converts, or re-verts, have a sharper image of the lack of graces in other denoms. When that's your focus, you can lose sight of the graces there. All salvific grace is from Jesus Christ. It is fact that this salvific grace is found in Natural Law, other religions, especially in Christianity, and most fully in Catholic Christianity. The sharp edge of that is that it is easy to refuse grace. The Catholic Church teaches that failure to accept grace is not the same as rejecting grace. If people are responding to grace in the best way they can, you can find salvific grace in other denoms. The crux is the cause of the failure.

CATECHISM:

847: This affirmation is not aimed at those who, through no fault of their own, do not know Christ and his Church: Those who, through no fault of their own, do not know the Gospel of Christ or his Church, but who nevertheless seek God with a sincere heart, and, moved by grace, try in their actions to do his will as they know it through the dictates of their conscience—those too may achieve eternal salvation. 848: "Although in ways known to himself God can lead those who, through no fault of their own, are ignorant of the Gospel, to that faith without which it is impossible to please him, the Church still has the obligation and also the sacred right to evangelize all men."

[Paladin D]

wow not the reaction i expected, but the responses are becoming quite stock standard. I believe my church has the fulness of truth behind it and I will not leave my church to follow something as blindly as this. I am not into taking fellow peoples direction I take God's he placed me in my church. One day you guys will understand this and hopefully grow a little bit more mature in your faith...

So...your church has the fullness of Truth, while other Protestant denominations that would disagree with you on some issues...don't?

[ironmonk]

wow not the reaction i expected, but the responses are becoming quite stock standard.

That's because we are One Faith. Catholic minds think alike. We follow the teachings of the Apostles, as Christ wants us to.

I believe my church has the fulness of truth behind it

Why?

Your church cannot be traced to the Apostles. Only One Church has the direct chain of disciples to the Apostles.

How can your church have the fullness of Truth when it's just another offshot of an offshot of Catholicism?

Acts 20:30 and 2 Peter 3:15.

Also, your church does not teach what the Apostles and the Disciples they made taught (First Christians, aka Early Church Fathers).

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[Dave]

I simply see it as this, on the surface I see no differences between our faith. We believe Jesus died on our sins, to forgive us of our sins. And accepting, this and accepting him is our pathway to heaven.

But there are a world of differences, none of them minor. Some Christians believe it's impossible to lose your salvation. We don't. That issue could have major ramifications for one's soul!

Some Christians claim baptism is unnecessary for salvation. We don't. Again, another life-or-death issue for one's soul.

Some Christians believe confession to a priest is unnecessary. We don't. Yet another life-or-death issue because if a soul doesn't seek repentance the right way, forgiveness won't happen (unless there's perfect contrition, which is very hard to have). You guessed it -- another life-or-death issue!

I could think of many more.

It's not enough to believe in Jesus; we have to do His will and avoid evil.

[Dave]

I believe my church has the fulness of truth behind it and I will not leave my church to follow something as blindly as this. I am not into taking fellow peoples direction I take God's he placed me in my church. One day you guys will understand this and hopefully grow a little bit more mature in your faith...

God didn't place you in your current church, Trooper. As I've said before, God doesn't lead people away from the Church. Your left the Church due to your own ignorance of its teachings and your laziness about learning about them. The real reason you stay in your church is because you "feel in your heart" that it's true. That's apparent on account of what you've said in the posts in this thread and previous threads. Thus, you're allowing your feelings and opinions to guide you rather than God.

[cmotherofpirl]

Trooper what does the phrase fullness of faith mean to you?

How do you reconcile what your church teaches with what the Apostles and early Church taught and believed?

What does your Church say about the fact that theCatholic Church in council picked out the books for the New Testament?

[ironmonk]

I guess the question can be asked...

Only One Church has the direct chain of disciples to the Apostles.

How can any church have the fullness of Truth when it's just another offshot of an offshot of Catholicism?

Acts 20:29-30 and 2 Peter 3:15 - If anyone wants to debate this, please address these verses....

Only One Church has the direct chain of disciples to the Apostles, and that One Church/One Faith will never be overcome.


God Bless,
ironmonk