Abortion

[cmotherofpirl]

Phatmassser please explain to these mothers why they should have killed their children.
:angry:

[url="http://www.geocities.com/teesieau/story.html"]http://www.geocities.com/teesieau/story.html[/url]


Why carry a dying child? A mother's perspective.



Many of you may have wondered, "What's the point?"... or perhaps pitied us for 'having' to continue carrying a child who is not going to live for long... I understand these thoughts, because when my sister was carrying Thomas Walter (who had been diagnosed with anencephaly at 18 weeks and lived for 17 ½ hours after birth) I really didn't properly comprehend the whole situation. I knew it was the 'right' thing to do. I didn't question that I would have no other option if the same thing ever happened to me (although I knew it never would!) But I thought how awful it was to know for over four months that the child you are carrying is unable to live outside your womb.


Once he was born, I was able to hold my nephew and see him finally as a real person - a precious unique creation - I began to realise that there was a lot more to it than mere 'ethics'. When, much to my disbelief, my own baby, Benedict, was diagnosed with this same condition four years later - I was finally able to grasp it, although it has taken me a long time to be able to put my thoughts into words. It is only since Charlotte's diagnosis that I have found words that almost convey my feelings.


Some people think we carried Benedict and Charlotte to term because we don't agree with abortion, because we are Catholic, or perhaps because our nephew was carried to term after a fatal diagnosis. While these factors probably all played a part in our immediate refusal of the option to 'terminate', this is not what it's all about! It's about love! It's about our baby! It's not about some tragic, fatal medical condition - it's about our child. We do not possess more strength than other people. It's not because we can cope where others wouldn't. There is no way to avoid the sad fact that she cannot live long after birth with this condition, but causing Charlotte to die earlier will not stop this happening. Causing her to die earlier will only take from us the beautiful experience of knowing and loving her.


The tragedy is not the fact that we know our baby will die. The tragedy is that our baby will die. It is not nice to know for months beforehand, but it gives us a chance to appreciate a life so brief, and not to miss a moment.


The value of Thomas Walter, Benedict and Charlotte cannot be measured by the length of their lives - we don't apply this yardstick to adults, so why should we to babies? A baby is not a possession, an accessory to acquire. A baby is a gift, a new entity, a precious, individual soul loved by God. We are created for a purpose, there is a reason for our being here. Even if that reason is unclear to us most of the time, we are constantly affecting other people in our families, communities etc. Who knows what purpose can be fulfilled in 9 months and one day? I don't know, but God does. I do know that Benedict left a lasting impression on our family, he made us slow down, savour life, and treasure our other children even more. He made us realise that we cannot control or predict what will happen in the future, he made us rely on God. And how often are we given the opportunity to really give another person true unconditional love? Love that truly expects no return? It is a blessing to experience that kind of pure love!


So don't pity us for carrying a child we know will die. Carrying this beautiful person is an honour. Grieve for the fact that our baby will die. We wouldn't wish away the time we had with Benedict, and also this time we are now experiencing with Charlotte, just to save us the pain of losing them. I've always thought of it like this; if your 3 year old was diagnosed with untreatable, fatal cancer and had only 4 months to live; would you prefer the doctor kill your child straight away so that you didn't have to wait for his/her impending death? Or would you prefer to spend as much time as you could with your child and love him/her for as long as you had left?


Someone asked us after Benedict died, "Was it worth it?" Oh, YES! For the chance to hold him, and see him, and love him before letting him go... For the chance for our children to see that we would never stop loving them, regardless of their imperfections? For the chance to give him everything we could? Oh, YES! Love your children, and remember that they each have their own unique mission. Children are always and only a blessing from God - even if they don't stay very long...



"I have my mission" by Cardinal Newman

God has created me to do him some definite service. He has committed some work to me which He has not committed to another. I have my mission - I may never know it in this life, but I shall be told it in the next.


I am a link in a chain, a bond of connection between persons. He has not created me for naught. I shall do good. I shall do His work. I shall be an angel of peace, a preacher of truth in my own place while not intending it - if I do but keep His commandments.


Therefore I will trust in Him. Whatever, wherever I am. I can never be thrown away. If I am in sickness, my sickness may serve Him; in perplexity, my perplexity may serve Him; if I am in sorrow, my sorrow may serve Him.

He does nothing in vain. He knows what He is about. He may take away my friends. He may throw me among strangers. He may make me feel desolate, make my spirits sink, hide my future from me - still He knows what he is about.

Edited December 4, 2004 by cmotherofpirl

[ironmonk]

[quote name='point5' date='Dec 2 2004, 03:07 PM'] Thanks guys...I have decided that abortion is always wrong...any circumstance...my friend after much consideration changed his papers thesis as well. Just thought you might want to know. He was writing it from a philosophical perspective not theological. [/quote]
The reason why the "great" minds of today are so far off base my friend is because they try to take the God out of philosophy... it's impossible to have sound philosophy without God.

Without God, nothing is wrong.... Murder, rape, stealing, etc... all ok, without God.

If there was no God, there is no reason why we can't do whatever we want to someone else.

All the great philosophers were God fearing men... Even Socrates... who I believe would be Catholic if he lived today.

Any philosopher that doesn't believe in God is a very poor philosopher and does not deserve the title.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[point5]

I agree I was just saying that that was the assignment for the paper...not to take a theological perspective

[ironmonk]

[quote name='point5' date='Dec 4 2004, 02:03 AM'] I agree I was just saying that that was the assignment for the paper...not to take a theological perspective [/quote]
Oh how I would love to argue that topic with that professor... plz get him to join


That paper could be summed up:

Without God, anything is permissible because I only have to answer to myself. If I can defend myself against all groups who would see me locked up for doing what I want, I can do whatever I want.


True philosophy must consider God or it's not philosophy. The love of wisdom cannot be known without God.

God Bless,
ironmonk

Edited December 4, 2004 by ironmonk

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Dec 4 2004, 12:30 AM']Oh how I would love to argue that topic with that professor... plz get him to join 


That paper could be summed up:

Without God, anything is permissible because I only have to answer to myself. If I can defend myself against all groups who would see me locked up for doing what I want, I can do whatever I want.


True philosophy must consider God or it's not philosophy. The love of wisdom cannot be known without God.

God Bless,
ironmonk[/quote]
i'd never quite thought about it that way! that's great! and so true!

[Phatmasser777]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Dec 3 2004, 12:41 PM'] 777,

If a car was wrecked and burning and the only way to save the driver was to kill the toddler buckled up in the car seat, I suppose this would be justified in your mind? [/quote]
Silly Scenerio.

[Phatmasser777]

[quote name='azaelia' date='Dec 3 2004, 01:32 PM'] This argument is so overused it's insane.

"Today it is possible for almost any patient to be brought through pregnancy alive, unless she suffers from a fatal disease such as cancer or leukemia, and if so, abortion would be unlikely to prolong, much less save the life of the mother."—Alan Guttmacher, former president of Planned Parenthood.

The ONLY situation in which the life of the mother would be in danger is during a ectopic pregnancy. Then there is a procedure that does not consitute an abortion where the death of the child is not the aim, but is the result of the procedure nevertheless. So your argument holds no water.

And your argument about deformed babies is selfish and hideous. My best friend has an older adopted brother whose mother was a 16 year old crack addict. He wasn't expected to live past his first year, let alone walk at all. He's deformed and mentally handicapped. He is now 21 years old, walking, running in the Special Olympics, and he is working. He is the most joyful, happy, delightful person I have ever come in contact with, and he puts a smile on every face he meets. I can't imagine a world without him. But by your logic he should have been aborted. Also, by your logic, my littlest brother should have been aborted. He's the 7th child, they thought he was going to have either Down's syndrome of spina bifida, and the first question they asked my mother was "Do you want an abortion?" He has neither Down's syndrome nor spina bifida, and is a healthy, happy, intelligent four year old playing in the snow at this very moment. Should my mother have had the choice to abort him just because they thought he would have these deformities? Would she have had the right to deprive the world of my little brother? The doctors were WRONG, and if she had listened to them, and if she hadn't been pro-life, she would have made the biggest mistake of her life.

The fact is, NO ONE was the RIGHT to decided who should live and who should die. It's a matter of natural law...NOT religion. People like you enjoy tagging it as a religious issue so you can have free reign. But the reality of it is that these are human beings, and by law no human being as the right to end the life of another innocent human being. If you want to argue the humanity of the fetus, I'm game. The killing of an innocent human is wrong by all standards and should be illegal in every case.

Furthermore, if we're going to talk on the subject of the woman's decision, abortion itself hurts the mother, but that fact is hidden by the abortion industry:

Breast cancer
Acute grief reaction
Emotional disturbances
Pelvic inflammatory disease
Uterine perforation
And more…

How is that a fair choice, when the side effects are never considered? Do you seriously think that if a woman knew the consequences, that she would actually choose this?

Abortion is NOT a RELIGIOUS ISSUE. NO ONE has the RIGHT to KILL their unborn CHILD.

[/rant] [/quote]
I didnt say I agreed with the beliefs of others, all i was saying is what you think is right and wrong, isnt someone elses, and for you to go around going, 'Ur wrong, ur wrong, do this, do this', is stupid. pop a valium already, or two.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Dec 5 2004, 03:56 AM'] Silly Scenerio. [/quote]
But you didn't answer the question.

[dUSt]

[quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Dec 5 2004, 10:31 AM'] I didnt say I agreed with the beliefs of others, all i was saying is what you think is right and wrong, isnt someone elses, and for you to go around going, 'Ur wrong, ur wrong, do this, do this', is stupid. pop a valium already, or two. [/quote]
Well, I don't think rape is wrong, so I shouldn't have to follow the beliefs of others that it is, right? Just because someone thinks rape is wrong doesn't give them the right to impose that belief on me, does it?

[azaelia]

[quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Dec 5 2004, 11:31 AM'] I didnt say I agreed with the beliefs of others, all i was saying is what you think is right and wrong, isnt someone elses, and for you to go around going, 'Ur wrong, ur wrong, do this, do this', is stupid. pop a valium already, or two. [/quote]
This isn't a matter of opinion, or belief. It's a matter of natural law. Natural law is not relative.

Law itself is the forcing of one persons morality on everyone else, whether that person is Christian or not. By your standards, there should be no law. With that kind of logic you begin the long descent down a slippery slope where it would eventually lead to "Oh your grandparents have lived long enough. Go ahead and euthanize them." Wake up and take a look around at the REAL world instead of your fantasy of relativity.

[Phatmasser777]

[quote name='dUSt' date='Dec 5 2004, 10:45 AM'] But you didn't answer the question. [/quote]
Yes and why didnt I?

SILLY SCENERIO.

[qfnol31]

It's silly because to answer would be to admit the similarity between it and your case.

[Phatmasser777]

[quote name='azaelia' date='Dec 5 2004, 12:37 PM'] This isn't a matter of opinion, or belief. It's a matter of natural law. Natural law is not relative.

Law itself is the forcing of one persons morality on everyone else, whether that person is Christian or not. By your standards, there should be no law. With that kind of logic you begin the long descent down a slippery slope where it would eventually lead to "Oh your grandparents have lived long enough. Go ahead and euthanize them." Wake up and take a look around at the REAL world instead of your fantasy of relativity. [/quote]
Its all a matter of perspective, when it comes down to it.

I never said such a thing. Keep your own thoughts to yourself, dont try and think for me.

That is ALL YOUR LOGIC NOT MINE.

[qfnol31]

By telling her to keep her thoughts to herself you just forced yours upon her...

[Phatmasser777]

[quote name='qfnol31' date='Dec 6 2004, 12:50 AM'] It's silly because to answer would be to admit the similarity between it and your case. [/quote]
Its a dumb scenerio, that has no basis in this debate.

I know my own thoughts. You people seem to have a habit of thinking for others.