point5 Posted December 2, 2004 Author Share Posted December 2, 2004 Thanks guys...I have decided that abortion is always wrong...any circumstance...my friend after much consideration changed his papers thesis as well. Just thought you might want to know. He was writing it from a philosophical perspective not theological. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
qfnol31 Posted December 2, 2004 Share Posted December 2, 2004 I hope the paper was able to help you. I realized it was taking it from a different angle... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatmasser777 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 [quote name='Quietfire' date='Dec 2 2004, 09:51 AM'] define: necessary evil. in terms of aborting an innocent. [/quote] To save the mothers life. If the child has serious disabilities, problems, mutations etc. Its upto the mother, and what she feels, no religious law should be forced on her, especially if she doesnt follow it. Then were sent back to the ages of the Caliphites and Theocracies of Europe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatmasser777 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 [quote name='point5' date='Dec 2 2004, 01:07 PM'] Thanks guys...I have decided that abortion is always wrong...any circumstance...my friend after much consideration changed his papers thesis as well. Just thought you might want to know. He was writing it from a philosophical perspective not theological. [/quote] Yes it is always wrong, but so are many other things in life, with which we must deal with and have to survive. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 [quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Dec 3 2004, 03:30 AM'] To save the mothers life. If the child has serious disabilities, problems, mutations etc. Its upto the mother, and what she feels, no religious law should be forced on her, especially if she doesnt follow it. Then were sent back to the ages of the Caliphites and Theocracies of Europe. [/quote] So you are a non- Catholic? It is never permissable to murder a child under any circumstances. You don't slice up human beings if they are not perfect. Mothers do not have any special permission to decide who lives or dies. THe right to live is paramount over all other rights. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatmasser777 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Im not getting into an arguement. Aborting a baby to save the mothers life is a valid reason and circumstance. Extremist beliefs like no, let the mother die, child live is silly and irresponsible, especially for the future of the child. Theres more to abortion than just the procedure, perhaps some could think outside the box. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest JeffCR07 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Phatmasser, what is silly is the immediate dismissal of a philosophically valid system of ethics that contains within it an unconditional ban on abortion proper simply because you have a preconceived notion with regards to the subject. That having been said, there are certain [i]procedures[/i] that can be done to save the mother that have, as an unintended consequence, the death of the child, such as in rare circumstances in which the fertilized egg attaches to another organ (say, the liver) and that organ must be removed to save the mother's life. In such a case, the procedure is not abortion, because it does not have as its end, either directly or indirectly, the death of the child, due to the fact that if the problem in question were, say, a tumor, the organ would still be removed. Such a proceedure has the unfortunate and unintended consequence of killing the child, but it is [i]not[/i] abortion. - Your Brother In Christ, Jeff Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
franciscanheart Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Phatmasser777, I urge you to read that tract! It may not be anywhere near perfect but it shows that what you are saying is off. A mother does not decide whether her child lives or dies. It is not up to any person to decide that. And I think it's terrible to say that just because a baby may have a disease or mutation that they should not be able to live. How could you say this? Are you Catholic? Back to the subject.... a person's a person no matter how small - even with "defects". If you lose your arm in a plane crash that doesnt make you any less human that had you not been in that crash and not lost your arm. I think what CMOM and Jeff are trying to show you is simply that abortion is wrong in all cases - that is the direct and intentional killing of an innocent life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phatmasser777 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 [quote]A mother does not decide whether her child lives or dies., It is not up to any person to decide that.[/quote] Then who? And dont say God, God wont come down and go, Plz dont do that or thats wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
phatcatholic Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 moving this to the debate board Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dUSt Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 777, If a car was wrecked and burning and the only way to save the driver was to kill the toddler buckled up in the car seat, I suppose this would be justified in your mind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
azaelia Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 [quote name='Phatmasser777' date='Dec 3 2004, 02:30 AM'] To save the mothers life. If the child has serious disabilities, problems, mutations etc. Its upto the mother, and what she feels, no religious law should be forced on her, especially if she doesnt follow it. Then were sent back to the ages of the Caliphites and Theocracies of Europe. [/quote] This argument is so overused it's insane. "Today it is possible for almost any patient to be brought through pregnancy alive, unless she suffers from a fatal disease such as cancer or leukemia, and if so, abortion would be unlikely to prolong, much less save the life of the mother."—Alan Guttmacher, former president of Planned Parenthood. The ONLY situation in which the life of the mother would be in danger is during a ectopic pregnancy. Then there is a procedure that does not consitute an abortion where the death of the child is not the aim, but is the result of the procedure nevertheless. So your argument holds no water. And your argument about deformed babies is selfish and hideous. My best friend has an older adopted brother whose mother was a 16 year old crack addict. He wasn't expected to live past his first year, let alone walk at all. He's deformed and mentally handicapped. He is now 21 years old, walking, running in the Special Olympics, and he is working. He is the most joyful, happy, delightful person I have ever come in contact with, and he puts a smile on every face he meets. I can't imagine a world without him. But by your logic he should have been aborted. Also, by your logic, my littlest brother should have been aborted. He's the 7th child, they thought he was going to have either Down's syndrome of spina bifida, and the first question they asked my mother was "Do you want an abortion?" He has neither Down's syndrome nor spina bifida, and is a healthy, happy, intelligent four year old playing in the snow at this very moment. Should my mother have had the choice to abort him just because they thought he would have these deformities? Would she have had the right to deprive the world of my little brother? The doctors were WRONG, and if she had listened to them, and if she hadn't been pro-life, she would have made the biggest mistake of her life. The fact is, NO ONE was the RIGHT to decided who should live and who should die. It's a matter of natural law...NOT religion. People like you enjoy tagging it as a religious issue so you can have free reign. But the reality of it is that these are human beings, and by law no human being as the right to end the life of another innocent human being. If you want to argue the humanity of the fetus, I'm game. The killing of an innocent human is wrong by all standards and should be illegal in every case. Furthermore, if we're going to talk on the subject of the woman's decision, abortion itself hurts the mother, but that fact is hidden by the abortion industry: Breast cancer Acute grief reaction Emotional disturbances Pelvic inflammatory disease Uterine perforation And more… How is that a fair choice, when the side effects are never considered? Do you seriously think that if a woman knew the consequences, that she would actually choose this? Abortion is NOT a RELIGIOUS ISSUE. NO ONE has the RIGHT to KILL their unborn CHILD. [/rant] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luthien Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 *applause* Excellent. There is a young man in my youth ministry who is deformed. He is the clown of the group. That kid makes me laugh, and he is very intelligent. Nothing is wrong with his mind, only his body. By your standards, he should not have been born. I can't imagine a life without this kid. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gal. 5:22,23 Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 (edited) Let me share what happened to a close friend (and Catholic) a few years ago. She realized at five months gestation that her child was anencephalic (no brain). She and her husband began to fervently pray for a miracle. Her daughter was born at full term and lived two hours. My friend was given the privelege of holding and loving her daughter and then having a funeral for her so she and her family could say goodbye. Now my friend counsels other women who are pregnant with babies who have spina bifida or anencephaly. She grows very angry when she hears people say "I would have aborted that baby as soon as I got the diagnosis." My friend tells people that she was honored to give that baby every minute of life that God destined for her. And, oh yeah, she can't wait to see her again one day. Edited December 3, 2004 by Gal. 5:22,23 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luthien Posted December 3, 2004 Share Posted December 3, 2004 Wow... Amazing :wub: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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