the pope

[cmotherofpirl]

I carry the same exact crucifix as well.

[Fiat_Voluntas_Tua]

Without a Crucifixion there is no Resurection...

[Brother Adam]

lumberjack,

First, quality your source, how do you know they are one in the same cross? They are not. There are a lot of people who like to call themselves Catholic. Like John Kerry.

Second, baptism was pagan before it was Christian. Perhaps we should do away with this heathen practice as well.

Yes we can deny it is a satanic image. You are the lumberjack right? Trees aren't chopped down in 2x4's.

[Mateo el Feo]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Dec 1 2004, 03:54 PM'] i PERSONALLY wouldn't wear a crucifix...thats YOUR personal opinion...I NEVER said I have anything against the crucifix.

and mateo, no I didn't have anything against The Passion...

I have something against this abhorrid image that is carried around in the name of Christ. [/quote]
Just FYI, the meaning behind the bent wood is that the weight of mankind's sin bends the cross, even as Our Lord bears it for us.

[God Conquers]

ya man... this is a rather ridiculous argument.

This bent (not broken) cross is a powerful symbol of Christ's suffering for your sins. If you believe that is satanic you have a problem.

I also was not aware of your conversion to schismatic traditionalist Catholicism.

[Justified Saint]

How low the anti-Catholic will go.

I can't believe people actually waste time looking up and making up this kind of stuff.

Oh well - that's life.

[dUSt]

Lumberjack,

This is what a "broken cross" looks like:

[img]http://www.nisbett.com/symbols/images/peace_5.jpg[/img]

But regardless, why would the pope be carrying a Satanic symbol anyway? What would be the point? Logically, what sense would it make? If he was Satanic, why would he just not tell us? If he wants to keep it a secret, then why would he carry around a Satanic symbol? Wouldn't he carry a more traditional looking cross so as not to expose his secret? It's ridiculous. Please try to answer these obvious questions.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Dec 1 2004, 07:05 PM']
I also was not aware of your conversion to schismatic traditionalist Catholicism. [/quote]
He hasn't converted, the quote in his signature is something that (I believe) was said by one of our "trad" posters.

[God Conquers]

I know... I was commenting on his choice of sources and avenue of attack.


dUSt, you are bang on man. Why won't people begin using common sense?

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='God Conquers' date='Dec 1 2004, 10:36 PM'] I know... I was commenting on his choice of sources and avenue of attack.


dUSt, you are bang on man. Why won't people begin using common sense? [/quote]
Oh... duh.... now I feel like a dope. lol

[Mr. Cube]

lumberjack, if you're scandalized by an [url="http://www.rosaryshop.com/graphics/individuals2/cr-0117sp.jpg"]image of crucifixion[/url], what would you think if someone [url="http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1901095.stm"]allowed themselves to be nailed to a cross on Good Friday[/url]? [url="http://www.drbo.org/chapter/50019.htm"]Sound familiar[/url]?

[Guest Aluigi]

i should like to participate in that some day.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='the lumberjack' date='Dec 1 2004, 03:55 PM'] no, its not the crucifix...hold for image conformation....

the Pontifical Crucifix JPII is holding:

[img]http://www.cuttingedge.org/articles/pope1.jpg[/img]

the Catholic Church crucifix:

[img]http://www.cuttingedge.org/articles/crucifix102.gif[/img]

Please notice the Crucifix that Pope John Paul II is holding up to the people. Study it closely, and you will realize that it is not a Traditional Crucifix, as shown above. Rather, this Crucifix is known as a "Bent Cross". But, what does that mean? For the answer to that question, let us turn to a Roman Catholic author, Piers Compton, writing in his book, "The Broken Cross: Hidden Hand In the Vatican", Channel Islands, Neville Spearman, 1981.

This Bent Crucifix is "... a sinister symbol, used by Satanists in the sixth century, that had been revived at the time of Vatican Two. This was a bent or broken cross, on which was displayed a repulsive and distorted figure of Christ, which the black magicians and sorcerers of the Middle Ages had made use of to represent the Biblical term 'Mark of the Beast'. Yet, not only Paul VI, but his successors, the two John-Pauls, carried that object and held it up to be revered by crowds, who had not the slightest idea that it stood for anti-Christ." (p. 72) On page 56 Compton prints a picture of the current Pope, John Paul II, holding this bent or broken cross, just as we have shown. [/quote]
Wrong.
Wrong again.
Once again you are wrong.


It is a true shame that you must pull for straws and state such ignorant things.

There were no santanists in the sixth century.

..............

The first thing to remember is that people who buy into these bigoted interpretations of innocent symbols or actions of the Church are NOT likely going to be convinced by any evidence. They have made up their minds and will not be confused with the facts.

Imagine trying to convince the Grand Wizard of the Ku Klux Klan that black people are equal in dignity to white people? The argument will not get very far and the Grand Wizard is not only going to reject the arguments but might kill the messenger.

Anti-Catholics are the exact same way -- an yes, even the killing part. Usually they will seek to kill a person's reputation or otherwise spew hatred. Jesus said that if we hate another we have committed MURDER in our heart. Sometimes anti-Catholics will literally kill.

Although your family, forgive my bluntness but truth must be told, "claim" to be Catholic, if they think Vatican II is heretical and such then they have left the communion of the Catholic Church and have placed their eternal souls in danger. Their minds are no longer Catholic, Protestants, behaving like Protestants -- protesting what the Church teaches and does and protesting with lies, distortions, arrogance and pride just like any other anti-Catholic does. They are not Catholic, but anti-Catholic.

Pray for them. But it is not likely you can convince them and will only cause grief for everyone if you try in my opinion.

As for the two issues you presented, anyone with an IQ above 25 can understand that neither the "bent" cross nor the "inverted cross" used by the Church are Satanic symbols. Again, forgive me for my caustic comment, but the level of outright hatred and profound non-thinking stupidity of people who attack the Church on these two issue is enough to make me vomit in disgust. (Now, Bro. Ignatius, tell us how you REALLY feel!)

THE "BENT" CROSS OF POPE JOHN PAUL II The Cross on the staff used by Pope John Paul II is called a "Shepherd's Staff" or a "Pastoral Staff" which is a symbol of the Pope's being the shepherd of the Universal Church. The Pope decided to use this instead of the traditional crozier which is a symbol of jurisdictional authority.
This "bent" Shepherd's Staff was first used by Pope Paul VI when he was elected in 1963.

There is ABSOLUTELY NO connection with Satanism.

The anti-Catholics propose that Satanists in the 6th Century adopted this "bent" cross as one of their symbols to mock the Catholic Church.

You will find this repeated by many anti-Catholic websites. Most of these website got their information from the flagship of Hate Sites -- CuttingEdge.org Other sites include: Jesus-Is-Lord.com and TheForbiddenKnowledge.com among many others.



CuttingEdge, in their repeating of this demonic slander against the church quotes from another bigot Piers Compton, who wrote the diatribe, "The Broken Cross: Hidden Hand In the Vatican", Channel Islands, Neville Spearman, 1981


[b]Mr. Compton states in his book:[/b]

This Bent Crucifix is "... a sinister symbol, used by Satanists in the sixth century, that had been revived at the time of Vatican Two. This was a bent or broken cross, on which was displayed a repulsive and distorted figure of Christ, which the black magicians and sorcerers of the Middle Ages had made use of to represent the Biblical term 'Mark of the Beast'. Yet, not only Paul VI, but his successors, the two John-Pauls, carried that object and held it up to be revered by crowds, who had not the slightest idea that it stood for anti-Christ." (p. 72) On page 56 Compton prints a picture of the current Pope, John Paul II, holding this bent or broken cross, just as we have shown, at left.

However, Mr. Compton, CuttingEdge, and no longer anti-Catholic proposing this demonic lie about the Church has EVER offered one shred of documented proof to support their claims of the "bent" cross used by the Pope has a Satanic history going back to the 6th century.

Indeed, no Satanist I have come across makes this claim. Most are amuzed at what they called, "the lack of intelligence of Christians" to suggest that the bent cross is one of their symbols.

[b]NOW FOR THE FACTS ABOUT THE BENT CROSS[/b]
The "bent" cross used by Pope Paul VI and Pope John Paul II is an original artistic creation of an Italian artist by the name of Lello Scorzelli. Mr. Scorzelli was born in 1921 so I think it is a far bet that his original artwork was not adopted by Satanists in the 6th Century. I could be wrong though.

Even if these bigots were to say that this artist copied the design from Satanists in the 6th century, WHERE is the documented proof on this... we cannot take their word for it "just because they say so".

The bottomline is that this is just another straw man erected by anti-Catholic bigots whose hate for the Catholic Church is so great as to only be descibed as demonic and who have no respect for truth, logic, of even common sense.




[url="http://www.saint-mike.org/Apologetics/QA/Answers/Spiritual_Warfare/s0210310015.html"]http://www.saint-mike.org/Apologetics/QA/A...0210310015.html[/url]

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]There were no santanists in the sixth century[/quote]

That is a wildly irresponsable statement, it frankly shocks me that you would say such a thing, how do you know there weren't any satanist in the sixth century, I would wager there where ALWAYS Satanist since the time that God was recognized and there for some People willing chose to work for the enemy. I just can't believe you would say that.

That doesn't mean I support the bent cross stuff but I still can't believe you would say that.

[popestpiusx]

Don,
I was about to jump on the same thing. The bent cross is not satanic (it is kind of ugly, but not satanic). But there were most certainly satanists in the 6th century.