Marijuana

[curtins]

what about medical marijuana?? is that immoral?

[jasJis]

[quote name='curtins' date='Dec 5 2004, 12:00 AM'] what about medical marijuana?? is that immoral? [/quote]
Read my earlier post. Proper medical use of marijuana is not immoral. Recreational abuse of marijuana is a big reason the US is reluctant to legalize it for medical use which adds to the immorality of insisting to use it recreationally in the US.

[cooltuba]

[quote name='Dreamweaver' date='Dec 4 2004, 08:00 PM'] There are many other substances besides radiation that wreak havoc upon the DNA. Thalidomide comes to mind. Pregnant mothers who would take it during pregnancy would end up with children with serious birth defects. I've even heard of a thalidomide-defected person who had a child that had defects similar to the effects of thalidomide, which could have possibly altered the DNA of his germ cells (testes) and passed said defects onto his child. UV light is known to scramble DNA up, but it is a form of nonionizing radiation....

I'm not sure if marijuana has mutagens in it or not....but don't say that there is no such thing as a mutagen. [/quote]
I stand corrected. Care to identify any mutagens in marijuana?

It just irks me when I see the abundance of mis-information being spread about marijuana.

I agree that it is a sin when it's illegal, but there are no serious side effects from moderate use. I don't think smoking it is the best idea; maybe brownies or tea, but smoking it is just as harmful as smoking cigarettes.

I agree with everything Ironmonk has said, he has a very good, mature understanding of the drug.

I would ask you that if you know someone who smokes, please don't try to make them quit by convincing them that it is wrong. You won't win the argument, and you'll drive them away from you, negating any good influence you could have been on them. Just lead by example, and eventually they'll grow out of it. I know many, many people who smoke (I used to be a server, and the restruant industry is probably the most drug-infested industry I've worked in so far), and most of them stop of their own accord when they are ready.

It's been an interesting thread, and I'll check back later.

--Tim

[Don John of Austria]

Okay first of all there are lots of mutagens, technicly all carcinogens are mutagens, but no marijuana is not simply full of carcinogentic mutagens but those that actually affect the reproductive cells.


But I will have to post more on that later as i now have to go.

[cooltuba]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 5 2004, 02:41 PM']technicly all carcinogens are mutagens[/quote]
[quote]
Mutagen


Definition

    * A mutagen is a substance or agent that causes an increase in the rate of change in genes (subsections of the DNA of the body's cells). These mutations (changes) can be passed along as the cell reproduces, sometimes leading to defective cells or cancer.

      Examples of mutagens include certain biological and chemical agents as well exposure to ultraviolet light or ionizing radiation.

    * Mutagenesis is the formation of mutations.

Additional Info

      There are many types of mutations, some of which are harmful and others which have little or no effect on the body's function. See the Life Science Dictionary at the U of Texas for examples.

      Mutagens can be identified using the Ames test and other biochemical testing methods.

      [b]Do not confuse a mutagen with a carcinogen (a substance that causes cancer). Mutagens may cause cancer, but not always.[/b]

      Do not confuse a mutagen with a teratogen (a substance that causes change or harm to a fetus or embryo).

MSDS Relevance

      Avoid working with mutagens whenever possible. If you must work with a mutagen be sure to wear personal protective equipment (PPE) and utilize workplace controls such as a fume hoods to minimize your exposure.

Further Reading

    * Guidance On A Strategy For Testing Of Chemicals For Mutagenicity by the Committee of Mutagenicity (134K PDF file).
    * Ethidium Bromide Safety tips - this material is one of the most potent mutagens commonly used in laboratories.
    * The Environmental Mutagen Society studies mutagenesis and its applications to genetic toxicology.

See also: carcinogen, clastogen, cytotoxin, teratogen.[/quote]

Here's the source:

[url="http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/mutagen.html"]http://www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/mutagen.html[/url]

Now, I'm not interested in hearing about the carcinogens that are in marijuana, because we all know now that carcinogens are not in fact mutagens. Furthermore, do you know if the carcinogens in marijuana are carcinogenic if the marijuana is orally consumed as opposed to smoking it? Please post a link, or list a book (I'll go to the library if I need to) that lists the mutagens found in marijuana. I've posted two links to credible sites that look at the actual scientific research behind your claims of marijuana harming the reproductive system. They also evaluate other propaganda released in wildly exaggerated studies (such as giving a rhesus monkey 200 times the psycoactive dose, dissecting it and observing hippocampal brain damage; thus concluding that smoking any marijuana at all damages brain tissue). For convieniences' sake, I'll copy and paste the section about marijuana harming the reproductive system:

CLAIM #6:

MARIJUANA HARMS SEXUAL MATURATION AND REPRODUCTION

Marijuana has been said to interfere with the production of hormones associated with reproduction, causing possible infertility among adult users and delayed sexual development among adolescents.

THE FACTS

There is no evidence that marijuana impairs male reproductive functioning.

The Jamaican and Costa Rican field studies detected no differences in hormone levels between marijuana users and non-users.

In epidemiological surveys of marijuana users, no problems with fertility have emerged as important.

In 1974, researchers reported diminished testosterone, reduced sexual function and abnormal sperm cells in males identified as chronic marijuana users. 34 In a laboratory study, the same researchers reported an acute decrease in testosterone, but no chronic effect after nine weeks of smoking; they did not evaluate sperm volume or quality. 35 In other laboratory studies, researchers have been generally unable to replicate these findings, 36 although by administering very high THC doses - up to 20 cigarettes per day for 30 days - one study found a slight decrease in sperm concentrations. 37 In all studies, test results remained within normal ranges and probably would not have affected actual fertility.

Severe adverse consequences have also been produced in male laboratory animals, although only with extremely high daily THC doses. 38

More importantly, in both the human and animal laboratory studies, all observed changes were reversed once THC administration was halted.

The claim that marijuana impairs female reproductive functioning in humans has no support in the scientific literature.

There have been no epidemiological studies indicating diminished fertility in female users of marijuana, and a recent survey found no impact of chronic marijuana use on female sex hormones. 39

Animal studies show hormonal changes and depressed ovulation following extremely high daily doses of THC. As occurs with males, these changes disappear once the experiment is completed. 40 In addition, when THC was administered to female monkeys for an entire year, they developed tolerance to its hormonal effects and normal cycles were reestablished. 41

Almost immediately following publication of the few studies showing a marijuana impact on reproductive hormones, warnings about marijuana's potential impact on adolescent sexual development began to appear.

Other than one case report of a 16-year old marijuana smoker who had failed to progress to puberty, 42 there has been nothing to indicate that such a potential exists. In whatever other ways one might consider marijuana to be bad for adolescents, it does not retard their sexual development.

The source: [url="http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/hemp/general/mjmyth/Exposing_06_1095.html"]http://www.druglibrary.org/schaffer/hemp/g...ng_06_1095.html[/url]

The numbers in the article are studies where the information being given was taken from. If you go to the link, you can click on the numbers and see the source. I'm not saying that marijuana is ok. It is illegal, and we are morally bound to follow the law of the land except when the law is contrary to Church law. I believe that spreading this mis-information is not fooling the younger generation as it did my parents' generation. I tried marijuana even though I was taught that it was the worst thing you could ever do. I didn't dislike it, but I didn't like it enough to risk my freedom for it. But I had to come to that decision on my own. I was open with my parents about it, and all they did was tell me all of the lies that you've been told, probably by well-meaning people. The fact is, many cultures smoked marijuana for thousands of years (the Aztecs, for example); they obviously didn't have a reproduction problem if they maintained a population of healthy adults for a couple millinea. I hope you can listen to me with an open heart, and hopefully become more understanding of what the drug really is: pretty boring, a waste of time, and probably not a big health risk; certainly not the most harmful thing since asbestos. That's all I'm trying to get across.

Pax Christi,

Tim

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]Do not confuse a mutagen with a carcinogen (a substance that causes cancer). Mutagens may cause cancer, but not always.
[/quote]


I didn't say all Mutagens where carcinogens, I said all carcinogens where mutagens there is a differance, If you understood the manner in which Cancer works you would know that.

I will post appropriate sources when i have time to dig them out, most of the people on this site will confirm I put up my evidence when I speak up, I just am extremely busy right now and i don't have my sources at my finger tips.

[Don John of Austria]

Here is the toxicity report on the CDC website.

You will notice it list multiple sexual reproductive effects in animal test. This isn't really why I was looking for but it should show good faith.
[url="http://www.cdc.gov/niosh/rtecs/ex602160.html"]here[/url]

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]
When giving the THC to the father, what effect does it have on conception or on the process of pregnancy?

When we treated the males with cannabinoids, some of them had significant problems in making the females pregnant.

And if those animals did make a pregnancy, many of the pups died as fetuses before the pregnancy went full term. In pups that survived birth, there was a significant increase in the number who died before they could eat on their own.

Once the THC-treated males impregnated the untreated females, the females had more difficulty maintaining the pregnancy and raising those pups to adulthood. We presume that the THC caused some defect in the father’s sperm, since that was the only way that these pups were exposed.

When we looked at the sons that did survive and grow up, they were as there fathers had been - less fertile and producing more losses in pregnancies which did occur. When we looked at chromosomes in the testes of both fathers and sons, we found abnormal chromosomes and birth defects in the third generation.

You are convinced that marijuana had an effect on testes and the production on male sperm which brings about abnormal chromosome development?

Yes, we certainly have evidence that the chromosomes are no longer normal, that there is a higher frequency of clumping of chromosomes so that when the cell divides, two equal cells are not produced. We know that in some condition in humans and in animals this is associated with severe defects, such as mongolism, in which an extra chromosome is present. I’m not saying that mongolism is related to marijuana use, but it is certainly known that if the chromosomes are not splitting properly, you get severe consequences. We know that in the testes of treated mice and of their untreated sons we are getting abnormalities.

What are the effects on the third generation?

I’m not going to say at this point that we have any kind of conclusive evidence of this, but we are speculating - based on the evidence - that there is some mutagenic effect - a change in genetic structure and sperm which is capable of being transmitted from generation to generations.

There are some other possibilities, such as the sons have an endocrine abnormality, which then affects their sperm. This is not genetic, but the interpretation is almost as serious either way. There is a transmissible defect which affects another generation, either directly (genetically) or indirectly (through endocrine hormonal imbalance).

You are convinced, then, that as far as your experimentation is concerned, marijuana does have a perceptible negative effect on pregnancy, from the standpoint of both the mother and father?

Yes. I think it is very clear that many drugs, marijuana included, can affect pregnancy. I think what is very important is that we’ve shown a reasonable amount of evidence to urge strongly that the father’s input be considered in terms of drug exposure. It may be that the consequences of the father’s drug involvement are even more serious than those of the mother’s.



What about applying these conclusions to humans?

Some of the research that we’ve already done in mice , some of the effects of marijuana on adult hormone levels, were actually found first in human users ten years ago. We know that some of the things that we find in mice have been found consistently in human users.



It’s a problem when you talk about offspring, because we don’t yet have any human third-generation offspring of marijuana users. But it’s very unlikely that we would be spared from what we consistently find in animals. Saying what will happen to the offspring of humans is a bit of a question, but having something similar to what we found in mice is very likely. This will finally be proved when we have third-generation offspring of marijuana users to test.

[/quote]




this comes from the site below

[url="http://members.optusnet.com.au/~apfdfy/Unborn.html"]here[/url]

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]The harmful effects of marijuana on the Reproductive System males and females
Marijuana use can decrease and degenerate sperm, sperm count, movement, and cause lowered sex drive. Females can have egg damage, suppression of ovulation, disrupt menstrual cycles, and alteration of hormone levels.
Regular use during pregnancy can lower birth weight and cause abnormalities similar to Fetal Alcohol Syndrome (small head, irritability, poor growth and development.
Can destroy the number of chromosomes, resulting in cell abnormalities and impaired function. [/quote]


and [url="http://www.marijuanaaddiction.info/harmful-effects-of-marijuana.htm"]here[/url]


You can also download an entire government report on the subject [url="http://www.drugabuse.gov/pdf/monographs/download44.html"]here[/url]

[Don John of Austria]

Good enough?

[burnsspivey]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 6 2004, 12:35 AM']

and [url="http://www.marijuanaaddiction.info/harmful-effects-of-marijuana.htm"]here[/url]


You can also download an entire government report on the subject [url="http://www.drugabuse.gov/pdf/monographs/download44.html"]here[/url] [/quote]
Results of the investigations are [i]suggestive[/i] of an effect, but [b]none[/b] of the investigators thus far [b]has reported consistently significant effects [/b]upon pregnancy, [b]nor have they found signs or symptoms which could be considered a syndromecharacteristic of neonates [/b]exposed to marijuana.

*L*

[Don John of Austria]

I never said anything about pregnancy, I said the reproductive cells, which by the time of pregnency are already makeing up the infant, the mutation of chromosomes specificly is what I was addressing. Therefore Birth defects can result from the smoking of marijuana at the Chromosomal level ther is DIRECT evidence for this I just posted it.

Edited December 6, 2004 by Don John of Austria

[Carrie]

[quote name='burnsspivey' date='Dec 6 2004, 03:22 PM'] Results of the investigations are [i]suggestive[/i] of an effect, but [b]none[/b] of the investigators thus far [b]has reported consistently significant effects [/b]upon pregnancy, [b]nor have they found signs or symptoms which could be considered a syndromecharacteristic of neonates [/b]exposed to marijuana.

*L* [/quote]
As much as I hate to agree with you , your post backs up what I said about experts not having any actual data that suggests harm.

[jasJis]

People, people, people. Read all the posts in this thread. Marijuana is not a harmless drug. It has been long associated with mental illness. What toker doesn't joke about the paranoia they often get when they're stoned? It's real. Major studies have linked marijuana and other drug use with schizophrenia. Even the Medical Marijuana website cautions against use by pregnant women and cautions against use by men & women who may possibly participate in conception. Look around on the net.
[quote]Substance Abuse and Schizophrenia

Substance abuse is a common problem in schizophrenia. The most common drugs of abuse among individuals with schizophrenia are alcohol, nicotine, marijuana and psychostimulants. Recent Viewpoints have discussed the prevalence of and risk factors associated with the use of nicotine in individuals with schizophrenia. This Viewpoint highlights the deleterious effects of marijuana use in individuals with schizophrenia.

Research Findings

Several case reports and one epidemiological study of a large population cohort in Sweden have reported that heavy marijuana use for up to one year often precedes the development of schizophrenia. The authors of the Swedish study state that this correlation suggests that heavy marijuana use is a risk factor for the development of schizophrenia.

Other reports, including a study published in the American Journal of Psychiatry, have linked the use of marijuana to exacerbations of psychosis in individuals with schizophrenia. These findings highlight the importance of treating marijuana dependence, especially in individuals with schizophrenia and in individuals at risk for the development of schizophrenia.

Cannabinoids, including THC, are the psychoactive substances found in marijuana. Cannabinoids stimulate cannabinoid receptors in the brain to produce their effects. The hallucinatory and psychotic like symptoms associated with marijuana intoxication have generated an interest in developing cannabinoid receptor antagonists for the treatment of schizophrenia (Please see cannabinoid receptor inhibitors in the Investigational Treatments section ).

References

Krystal JH, D'Souza DC, Madonick S, Petrakis IL. Toward a rational pharmacotherapy of comorbid substance abuse in schizophrenic patients. Schizophr Res 1999 Mar 1;35 Suppl:S35-49

Allebeck P, Adamsson C, Engstrom A, Rydberg U. Cannabis and schizophrenia: a longitudinal study of cases treated in Stockholm County. Acta Psychiatr Scand 1993 Jul;88(1):21-4

Treffert DA. Marijuana use in schizophrenia: a clear hazard. Am J Psychiatry 1978 Oct;135(10):1213-5 [/quote]

[Carrie]

[quote name='jasJis' date='Dec 6 2004, 04:04 PM'] Major studies have linked marijuana and other drug use with schizophrenia. [/quote]
Actually, there is no proof that marijuana causes schizophrenia. People with schizophrenia are more likely to use it because it is a relief of symptoms for them, but marijuana [b]does not[/b] in any way, shape, or form cause schizophrenia, so it is misleading to say so.

Just like people with Posttraumatic stress disorder may drink to relieve the symptoms of their illness. But it would be false to say that having PTSD causes alcoholism, because it does not.


By the way, your sources are old in regards to current research. Your latest source is dated 1999. 5 years ago is a long time ago in the research world. Do you have anything more current to convince me with?