Theoketos Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 And the difference between taking a few drinks and taking a few hits lies in moderation. Pot is never moderate, not only because of the legality of the issue, but because it is instrinsically harmful to the human body. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sinner Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Get to the point, Lets smoke another joint, You dont know how it feels. No, you dont know how it feels. If not a sin....... a near occasion? Anything that alters my reality bites. No more drugs, no more alcohol; Just Jesus. Dont need nuthin else. Pass the bong.................................................away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 [quote name='jasJis' date='Dec 6 2004, 06:15 PM'] Carrie, Your claim that "there is no proof that marijuana causes schizophrenia" is almost idiocy. [/quote] *rolls eyes* Almost idiocy, eh? Nice. Ok, well I supoose what I've learned in my graduate level education in psychology must be completely false then. *makes note to self* Tell professor all the literature we've read is wrong and should be discarded. Jas, you need to not look at the news or the media because they are biased in every way, shape and form. You should get data from scientific, experimental studies that have been tested and re-tested for validity and reliability. Do you always believe what you hear on the news or from a website? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 [quote]*rolls eyes* Almost idiocy, eh? Nice. [/quote]A spade's a spade...[quote]Jas, you need to not look at the news or the media because they are biased in every way, shape and form. You should get data from scientific, experimental studies that have been tested and re-tested for validity and reliability. Do you always believe what you hear on the news or from a website?[/quote]*chuckle* Carrie. Make a note to yourself to look up the word "pendantic". Not everything a teacher tells you is true. So. I'm supposed to believe everything from your one source, but I cannot believe anything from other sources. What "bias" from the schizophrenia website am I supposed to distrust? Should I just assume they are all just paranoid? What about the links to the studies and articles they provided? Even the pro-medicinal marijuana websites are more balanced than you. I learned early on that a coin has two sides. Not unless you look at both sides and the edges can you comprehend the whole coin. I've gone to pro-pot and anit-pot and neutral-pot websites. And the News media is ALWAYS anti-pot so I should dismiss anything negative they say about pot. Gee. Sorry my bluntness was offensive, but I felt I must point out the dangerous misconception you are fostering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artemisjade Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 [quote name='jasJis' date='Dec 6 2004, 04:15 PM'] How about this. Provide some RECENT Scientific studies that prove it isn't harmful.... [/quote] Actually, noone is arguing that it isn't harmful in some way. The argument is that it isn't more inherently harmful than tobacco or alcohol. Find me some proof of that, why don't you? And, um, recent studies, please. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artemisjade Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 [quote name='jasJis' date='Dec 7 2004, 10:31 AM'] What "bias" from the schizophrenia website am I supposed to distrust? [/quote] Again, I don't think the argument is that your site has bias, only that they cite studies that have bias. [quote]Should I just assume they are all just paranoid?[/quote] Hahaha...paranoid...schizophrenics...hahaha. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 scientific studies aside, I have been observing my pothead friends for the last 6 years as their usage has increased. There is a definite effect to marijuana usage that goes beyond what it does to your lungs or sperm count. If we can't attribute a change to actual biological effects, then perhaps it is a mental thing. In my experience, 'potheads' have their own culture. Solidarity among the users might lead them to adopt similar attitudes that explain their lack of ambition, drive and ability. So if the mental image of a stoner is a couch potato who plays music all the time, wears junky clothes, and doesn't think getting a successful job is important...well there you go. Now of course you will have those high-achievers that are also tokers. Those are what we call outliers, and they can skew the results. I would be willing to bet that prolonged casual use of marijuana leads to lower motivation, because I've observed it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 [quote name='artemisjade' date='Dec 7 2004, 12:23 PM'] Actually, noone is arguing that it isn't harmful in some way. The argument is that it isn't more inherently harmful than tobacco or alcohol. Find me some proof of that, why don't you? And, um, recent studies, please. [/quote] Why does it have to be [b]more[/b] harmful than alcohol or tobacco? Do we need to ADD something in our society to ADD to the self-harmful stuff we do? Alcohol and tobacco has been a major part of almost all cultures and societies for thousands of years while cannabis use is relatively rare. Because society has 1,00's of years practical experience dealing with the worst effects of tobacco & alcohol we should add something to cause mental and physical damage right when American society is turning away from tobacco use and alcohol abuse? Doesn't seem logical or sensible, does it? Adding legalized marijuana for recreational use only fosters the idea that we should use chemicals, not God, for relaxation and recreation. Use some common sense. If we are going to allow something that is at least "potentionally" harmful (although the only the degree of harm is debateable), shouldn't there be a positive payback for that action? What is it? And get off the silly claim that the studies I recommended to go to on schizophrenia.com are biased. What sense would that make for them to chase a red herring cause of schozo? Check out what they say and go to the pro-medical marijuana sites that give a pro/con analysis. At least they're honest enough to say that in certain circumstances the benefits outweigh the dangers of the side-effects just as most other medications do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artemisjade Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 [quote name='jasJis' date='Dec 7 2004, 12:50 PM'] Why does it have to be [b]more[/b] harmful than alcohol or tobacco? Do we need to ADD something in our society to ADD to the self-harmful stuff we do? [/quote] No, but neither alcohol nor tobacco are inherently sinful, are they? So, if marijuana is not more harmful, why should it be inherently sinful? [quote]Alcohol and tobacco has been a major part of almost all cultures and societies for thousands of years while cannabis use is relatively rare. [/quote] You do know that tobacco use by Europeans (and perhaps anywhere outside of the Americas) didn't begin until the late 1400's right? [quote]Because society has 1,00's of years practical experience dealing with the worst effects of tobacco & alcohol we should add something to cause mental and physical damage right when American society is turning away from tobacco use and alcohol abuse?[/quote] You seriously believe that society is turning away? [quote]Adding legalized marijuana for recreational use only fosters the idea that we should use chemicals, not God, for relaxation and recreation.[/quote] This is not the discussion at hand. [quote]And get off the silly claim that the studies I recommended to go to on schizophrenia.com are biased. What sense would that make for them to chase a red herring cause of schozo? Check out what they say and go to the pro-medical marijuana sites that give a pro/con analysis. At least they're honest enough to say that in certain circumstances the benefits outweigh the dangers of the side-effects just as most other medications do.[/quote] The problem is that schizo.com links to studies that show a [b]correlation[/b] between marijuana use and schizophrenia, not [b]causation[/b]. The two are often mistaken and one does not prove the other. There could be another factor that causes the link. However, we don't know what the link is so instead we say that one causes the other. It would make just as much sense to say that schizophrenia causes marijuana use. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artemisjade Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Dec 7 2004, 12:49 PM'] scientific studies aside, I have been observing my pothead friends for the last 6 years as their usage has increased. There is a definite effect to marijuana usage that goes beyond what it does to your lungs or sperm count. If we can't attribute a change to actual biological effects, then perhaps it is a mental thing. In my experience, 'potheads' have their own culture. Solidarity among the users might lead them to adopt similar attitudes that explain their lack of ambition, drive and ability. So if the mental image of a stoner is a couch potato who plays music all the time, wears junky clothes, and doesn't think getting a successful job is important...well there you go. Now of course you will have those high-achievers that are also tokers. Those are what we call outliers, and they can skew the results. I would be willing to bet that prolonged casual use of marijuana leads to lower motivation, because I've observed it. [/quote] Anecdotal evidence only proves that the people involved behave in the way you describe, not that anyone else would. Perhaps it's the fact that marijuana is illegal that caused the subculture to bloom. We don't know. Aside from that...how is that different from or, rather, more sinful than the effect of long term alcohol or tobacco use? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 Thank you artemisjade. You've stated what I was trying to get at in a clearer manner. As you said correlation does not equal causation, although many people do not know (or refuse to accept) the difference. jas, I never alluded to the idea that marijuana usage was not harmful. I merely said that there is no scientific proof of that. If you go back and read my posts, I never made a comment for or against marijuana usage. I just simply stated there is not enough scientifc evidence. toledo, as a psychology major, I would hope that you come to rely more on the studies and actual evidence rather than personal experience. That will not serve you well in your career. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jasJis Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 [quote name='artemisjade' date='Dec 7 2004, 01:05 PM'] The problem is that schizo.com links to studies that show a [b]correlation[/b] between marijuana use and schizophrenia, not [b]causation[/b]. The two are often mistaken and one does not prove the other. There could be another factor that causes the link. However, we don't know what the link is so instead we say that one causes the other. It would make just as much sense to say that schizophrenia causes marijuana use. [/quote] Are you obtuse or stoned ? Put the bong down, sober up, and read the dang articles. The current statistical evidence [u]is[/u] for CAUSATION, not just a relative statistical coincedence that schizo people tend to smoke pot. Even the pro-medical use of mariuajuana sites acknowledge this and advise monitoring. Gee. It's like arguing with children that just say 'nuh-uh'. Have YOU provided any evidence, or sites, or links or quotes that justify or "prove" your claims? (Heck. You could at least go to the pro-medical pot sites and just cite their pros...) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 jas, I have upmost respect for you, but I need to say something. Considering you feel like you are arguing with children, why not set an example and behave in an adult-like manner? Can we not debate without the name calling? Or the assumptions that some are smoking pot because their argument is not the same as yours? Geez, who's acting like a child? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Carrie Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 [quote name='jasJis' date='Dec 7 2004, 03:19 PM'] Have YOU provided any evidence, or sites, or links or quotes that justify or "prove" your claims? (Heck. You could at least go to the pro-medical pot sites and just cite their pros...) [/quote] Her point is not to prove the pros of marijuana usage. From what I've read, she has not shown a stand either for or against marijuana usage. Please realize we are not trying to prove that marijuana usage is not harmful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted December 7, 2004 Share Posted December 7, 2004 [quote]The argument is that it isn't more inherently harmful than tobacco or alcohol. Find me some proof of that, why don't you? And, um, recent studies, please. [/quote] Well first alcohol isn't harmful at all in fact in moderate quanities it is benificial for your health, so that isn't even an issue. As for tabacco I quoted a study which shows that in animals moderate doses of Marijuana alters male sexual Chromosomes and thathese birth defects are passed on generationally, is there ANY evidence at all that smoking a camel is going to cause your grandson to have endocrine problems? I have heard of none, but many studies have shown that such a thing does happen with mammals. That is a pretty serious differance between pot and tabacco. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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