Difference Between Southern Baptist And Baptist

[Joolye]

I have heard of the Southern Baptists, but I don't think they exist in Australia. We only have the Baptist Church of Australia and Independent Baptists. I don't know of the other 200 types of Baptist churches you say exist. Must be an American thing.

So anyway, I want to know what is the difference between Southern Baptists and Baptists. Is there a difference in theology somewhere there? What is it?

[VeraMaria]

I always wanted to know that too!

I pass all types of different Baptist churches and I'm rather confused....

Any Baptists here to help us?? :D

[jasJis]

Kathlikos can give us the accurate answer. Southern Baptists tend to be more fundamental, but they also have more of a church Structure overseeing the Southern Baptists Churches. For example, they elect a president/leader at a convention or synod every few years. The last couple have gotten into $$ and chastity problems lately.

But as you saw with Joolye's posts. Baptists also tend to shun any sort of Church hierarchy and organization. Disputes will rise up on what Catholics will regard as a minor Discipline matter (as opposed to Dogma or Doctrine), and start up a new congregation. That's why I have a Baptist church behind my house, and accross the street from it and about 500' down, there is another Baptist Church.

Growing up in the South, and personally knowing and working with Southern Baptists and SB Preachers, they are very anti-Catholic. If I had $10 for everytime I've been told I'm going to hell by them, I'd retire.

[PedroX]

The Southern Baptists originally split from the Baptist church over slavery. About 5 years ago they issued a formal apology for supporting slavery. They are currently the largest Prot denomination in America, I think.

peace...

[Anna]

jasJis,

You are right on there.

The Southern Baptists do seem to be more conservative. I've worked with them in the Pro-Life movement, as well as encountered some back when I homeschooled for nine years.

It's funny, cuz we really connected.

We'd be chatting about how offended God is over abortion and promiscuity, how the removal prayer in the schools has resulted in so many more problems, disciplinary and otherwise...

Then would come the question: "Where do you fellowship?"

I would respond, "Oh, I worship at St. James."

Then, they would get this horrified, knowing look on their faces...They'd try to cover it and maintain a pleasant countenance, and the response was always the same: "Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh." Then a very uncomfortable silence.

You could almost hear the voice in their heads saying, "Oh, what a shame, this poor girl isn't saved."

Each year in the U.S., there is a Southern Baptist Convention. They vote on issues relating to their denomination, etc.

Of course, I don't know that much about it, but as jasJis pointed out, there is a hierarchical structure there.

Doesn't that kinda defy their own fifth distinctive?

But without a leader at the helm, every pastor can pretty much do and preach as he pleases, can't he? So y'all just have to trust that he's a completely selfless, pure, innocent, faithful Christian who isn't in the least bit tempted by the money and influence he weilds in the congregation and surrounding community...

Come to think of it, doesn't every Baptist denomination also have a board of elders or something like that? That's how some pastors get run outta Dodge, as I understand it...Some others actually get voted out by their congregation. So, if his sermons aren't uplifting enough, firey enough, etc., the sheep can oust their shepherd!

Pax Christi. <><

[Katholikos]

Right on, jasJis and PedroX.

Baptists are a third-generation Reformation movement that began in Amsterdam. John Smyth led a group of Separatists from England to Holland, away from the Anglican Church. There they met up with the Mennonites, whose religious ideas -- adapted from the Anabaptists -- they embraced: Sola Scriptura, Believer's Baptism, separation of church and state, strict enforcement of church discipline in family and business affairs. In 1607, Smyth organized the First English Baptist Church based on these principles. He soon left the Baptists he founded and became a Mennonite, but the group he led refused to join him and went back to England.

The original method of baptism the group used was infusion, the practice followed by the Mennonites. The first group from 1607 is called General Baptist; they believed in general atonement (everyone can be saved). They split in 1638 and the second group is called Particular Baptist (only those whom God has predestined for heaven can be saved). A third split was the Immersion Baptists in 1644, who taught that immersion (actually, submersion) was the only valid form of baptism. Baptists have been splitting ever since. But all Baptists eventually adopted this "immersion only" doctrine.

Fast forward to the Civil War period in the United States. Baptists in the south split from the Northern Baptists in 1845, forming the Southern Baptist Convention. The southerners supported slavery, and (of course) had plenty of "proof-texts" to back up their belief. The northerners, predictably, were for the abolition of slavery. Today, the Southern Baptists are the largest Protestant denomination in the U.S.

Southern Baptist theololgy is conservative and Calvinist. In practice, they strictly adhere to the basic principles that all Baptists hold and are very critical of other denominations, including other Baptists. Factionalism is rampant among them, as can be observed at their convention meetings. Triumphalism is strong. The prevailing attitude is that "we're saved and you're not." Although doctrines are denominational, each Southern Baptist preacher is the ultimate authority on what his particular church will teach (i.e., on what he personally believes the Bible says). Thus, every Baptist preacher is his own Pope.

Nine-tenths of all Baptists live in the United States.

I'll be glad to answer any other questions, so ask away!

When did the Baptist denomination begin in Australia? Who founded it? I'd be interested in knowing its history.

Katholikos

Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

[Joolye]

I don't know much about Australian Baptist history. I'd guess it came to Australia with the British in 1788. Later when I have more time, I might try to find out.

[Anna]

hey, is there any history or statistics on Catholicism in Australia?

(Just in case I decide to visit y'all one day )

Pax Christi. <><

[Joolye]

I have had a look around on the internet for history of the Baptist Church in Australia. I didn't find much, most of it is in books. But here are some snippet from what I did find.

Baptist work was initiated in the various Australian colonies during the period from 1831 to 1895. Initially, each area functioned more or less independently. But as the colonies prepared for political federation in a Commonwealth of Australia at the turn of the century, voices were raised demanding the federation of Baptist work...After the First World War, the Baptist Union of Australia became a reality, when it was inaugurated at the Burton Street Tabernacle, Sydney, on Wednesday, August 25, 1926.

Another site:

Baptists have always been a minority group: 2.10 % of the population in 1881 to 1.66% in 1996 with a peak of 2.37% in 1901. The census figures (1996) of 295,178 have to be compared with official denominational membership figures (1998) of 63,553 with 826 churches. Church membership statistics show considerable variation from the numbers identifying themselves as Baptist: between 1986 and 1991 membership rose only 4.3% but attendances grew by 16.8%. Church life surveys suggest only about half who attend Baptist churches are members. The average size of Baptist congregations is larger than all other denominations except Pentecostals and Catholics.

Something interesting for those who want to know where the Baptist church came from:

WE ARE BAPTISTS, not Protestants, not reformed, just Baptists. Protestants are people belonging to churches that came out of papal darkness. Reformed churches are those Protestant churches holding to Calvinistic, as opposed to Arminian doctrine. Baptist churches were not born out of Romanism. We did not spring from the Protestant Reformation. While we appreciate and profit from our Protestant brethren, past and present, who are reformed in doctrine, we trace our history and our doctrine not to the Reformation, but to the New Testament. The first preacher of this gospel age was not John the Reformed, but John the Baptist!

History of the Catholic church in Australia:

The Catholic influence did not reach Australia until 1820 when two Irish Catholic chaplains arrived.  Father Conally did not remain in Sydney but went on the Van Diemen's Land while Father Therry began building the first Catholic Church in Sydney.  It was not until 1835 that the first Catholic Bishop, J. B. Polding, arrived in Sydney.  Although the church is firmly established, like many denominations in a changing society it faces a number of problems.  One of these problems has been the falling away in numbers of those seeking a place in the clergy.

(Van Diemen's Land refers to Tasmania).

More about Baptists in Australia:

The Baptist denomination arrived among the last of the Protestant denominations from Britain.  The first services were held in an inn at Sydney in 1831.  The Baptist churches are autonomous.  However, there are state unions which consist of groups of churches.

There is a page on Catholic history in Australia here

[Anna]

hey, Joolye,

That is a real cool site about the Catholic history in Australia.

According to this story, the only Sacred Host (ordinary bread, consecrated to become and transubstantiated into the real Body and Blood of Christ) was reserved for 101 years!

That sounds pretty amazing, as ordinary bread would have soon decayed.

But the Eucharist remained there, for the Faithful...

Here is an exerpt from that site:

In the Blessed Sacrament Chapel of our church there is a small wooden cross which is a precious link with the early Catholic history of Sydney. In May 1818 Fr Jeremiah O'Flynn was deported under arrest from the colony. The Blessed Eucharist was left in the home of James Dempsey in Kent St. Reserved in a cedar cupboard it became a focus of Catholic worship where the faithful gathered for Sunday devotions until November 1919 when it was consumed by the chaplain of a visiting French ship.

Pax Christi. <><

[Anna]

Something interesting for those who want to know where the Baptist church came from:

WE ARE BAPTISTS, not Protestants, not reformed, just Baptists. Protestants are people belonging to churches that came out of papal darkness. Reformed churches are those Protestant churches holding to Calvinistic, as opposed to Arminian doctrine. Baptist churches were not born out of Romanism. We did not spring from the Protestant Reformation. While we appreciate and profit from our Protestant brethren, past and present, who are reformed in doctrine, we trace our history and our doctrine not to the Reformation, but to the New Testament. The first preacher of this gospel age was not John the Reformed, but John the Baptist!

I can't really say that I agree with this kind of logic.

The Baptist denomination cannot be traced back, historically, to John the Baptist. John himself said, "I must decrease, and He (Jesus) must increase."

Jesus founded a Church, not John.

The Church Jesus founded, we all know, did have a hierarchical structure, with Peter as its leader.

The Baptist denomination was founded well after the Reformation by a mere man. There is no record of a Baptist community before that time.

None of Christ's disciples founded their own churches.

They followed the One True Church which Christ Himself established. The New Testament gives plenty of evidence to that.

The stickler for me, here is this one remark, which is simply untrue and quite easily disproved:

we trace our history...to the New Testament.

The New Testament, historically was compiled by the Catholic Church...so...is this person saying that the Baptist denomination is an offshoot of Catholicism? Still, not historically accurate. Sounds like he is trying to rewrite history with his own opinions rather than historical facts. No dates, places, names of preachers who succeeded John, etc. It's just fantasy.

However, the other historical info giving dates and places, etc., regarding the history of the Baptist denom in Australia, was very interesting. Funny, none of them mentions any names, though. But, good job researching, and thank you.

Pax Christi. <><

Edited October 12, 2003 by Anna

[Katholikos]

This is from encyclopedia.com. It gives the origin of the Baptists as well as the history of the denomination in America. As you will note, the Baptists originated not in Jerusalem but in Amsterdam, not in the first century but in the 17th. That "history" of the denomination you posted is, unfortunately, merely wishful thinking. If the Baptists have been around since the first century, they were disembodied spirits -- phantoms. There is not a trace of anyone with Baptist tendencies in the historical record until 1607 or 08. One can imagine that they were there if one wishes, but there is absolutely no evidence to support such a belief -- none, zip, zero, zilch.

Sorry to be the bearer of such disappointing news. But it's the truth.

----------------

QUOTE

Baptists

Section: History of the Baptist Churches

In Holland a group of English separatists , led by John Smyth , came under Mennonite influence and formed c.1608 in Amsterdam the first English Baptist congregation. Smyth baptized first himself, then the others. In 1611 certain members of this congregation returned to London and established a church there. This was the first of the churches afterward known as General Baptists, since they held the Arminian belief that the atonement of Jesus is not limited to the elect only but is general.

In 1633 the Particular Baptists were founded. They were a group whose Calvinistic doctrine taught that atonement is particular or individual. Immersion was not yet insisted upon in these churches, but in 1644 seven Particular Baptist churches issued a confession of faith requiring that form of baptism, and Baptist was thenceforth the name given to those who practiced it. In 1891, General and Particular Baptists united into a single body called the Baptist Union of Great Britain and Ireland.

In America it was Baptists of the Particular type that first gained influence among the Puritans and Calvinists, when Roger Williams and his companions in Rhode Island rejected infant baptism and established a church in 1639 based on the individual profession of faith. Baptists were later persecuted in New England for opposing infant baptism, and one group emigrated c.1684 from Maine to Charleston, S.C. A group of Separate Congregationalists from New England under Shubael Stearns and Daniel Marshall established (1755) the Separate Baptists in Sandy Creek, N.C.

In the Southeast the General Baptist views found acceptance, but the stricter Calvinistic ideas suited the pioneers who settled the southern mountains after the Revolution. Their opposition to mission work gave them the name Anti-Mission. They were also called Hard Shell or Primitive Baptists.

Early missionary activity extended the Baptist movement to the Continent and elsewhere. In the United States the American Baptist Missionary Union (under a longer title) was formed in 1814 to support workers in foreign lands. In 1832 the American Baptist Home Mission Society was organized. When the question of slavery became a dividing wall, the Southern Baptist Convention was established (1845).

Sections in this article:

Introduction

Organization and Churches

History of the Baptist Churches

Bibliography

Columbia Encyclopedia, Sixth Edition, Copyright © 2003.

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Oremus pro invicem, Katholikos

[Katholikos]

QUOTE 

WE ARE BAPTISTS, not Protestants, not reformed, just Baptists. Protestants are people belonging to churches that came out of papal darkness. Reformed churches are those Protestant churches holding to Calvinistic, as opposed to Arminian doctrine. Baptist churches were not born out of Romanism. We did not spring from the Protestant Reformation. While we appreciate and profit from our Protestant brethren, past and present, who are reformed in doctrine, we trace our history and our doctrine not to the Reformation, but to the New Testament. The first preacher of this gospel age was not John the Reformed, but John the Baptist! 

Baptists are Protestants. They derive from the Mennonites, led by Menno Simons, an ex-Catholic priest. So the "family tree" is

Catholic-Mennonite-Baptist. Historians describe Baptists as third-generation Reformation Protestants.

If only those organizations that split directly from the Church (first generation break-aways) are counted, there are few that could be called Protestant, because few still exist.

For example, the organization Martin Luther founded no longer exists. What exists now are many divisions of the original Lutheran church. Was the original Lutheran church Protestant and the splits of second, third, fourth, fifth generation not Protestant? That's absurd.

The Catholic Church is the Mother Church of all Christendom. If one isn't Catholic or Eastern Orthodox (some historians add Anglican), one is Protestant.

Peace be to all,

Ave Cor Mariae, Katholikos

[Katholikos]

Musings while walking on a canal bank at 4 a.m.

There was only one Church -- the Catholic Church -- for a thousand years. In 1054 the Eastern Churches split from the Western Church. The Eastern Churches no longer called themselves Catholic, but Orthodox. Twenty-one Eastern Orthodox Churches have since come home to Rome, but the remainder are still separated.

Like the Catholic Church, the Orthodox Churches have Sacred Apostolic Tradition and Sacred Scripture as the basis of their faith. They know, just as Catholics do, that not everything Christ and the Apostles taught is written in the New Testament. They know it because they were there.

At 4 a.m. I was thinking that any church that traces its beginning back to the Apostles has to know that not everything the Apostles taught was written down. Some was written down and later became what we know now as Sacred Scripture. Some was transmitted other ways -- in the sacred liturgy, through the writings of the Church Fathers, orally -- through Sacred Apostolic Tradition. St. Paul urged the Thessalonians to hold on to these truths whether they were taught "by word of mouth (Sacred Apostolic Tradition) or by letter (Sacred Scripture), 2 Thess 2:15.

Jesus taught the Apostles for three years. We know that not everything he taught them was written down, because the NT plainly tells us that. Also, it's obvious that the NT doesn't contain three years' instructions!

But none of the Protestant churches base any of their doctrines on Apostolic Tradition. Rather, every Protestant church is based on the written word -- a different interpretation of the Bible.

All Baptist denominations base themselves on the Bible (only), a further indication that they were not around in the Apostolic Age.

The theory that Baptists existed at the time of the Apostles originated from a book called "Trail of Blood." We could explore that sometime, if you wish. Or you can read about it at http://albanach.org/apologetics/trail.html

I'm reviewing your research again, Joolye. Good work! I apologize for not saying that sooner. I do okay with researching books, but on the internet I'm a dud. Must be my age. I admire your skill.

Pace bene (peace and all good).

Oremus pro invicem, Katholikos

Edited October 13, 2003 by Katholikos

[Aloysius]

there's like 10 Baptist type churches fairly close to me, theres like a first baptist church and a baptist church and a bible baptist church and a first bible baptist church and a second bible baptist church etc. etc.

no offense, but at least in the US i'd say this is about the most disfunctional Christian family around.