John Kerry

[Socrates]

[quote name='Don John of Austria' date='Dec 1 2004, 01:38 PM'] It is from the sylubus of errors prumigated by blessed Pius IX it is current as it is Dogmaticly difined just as the trinity is current or the transubstantition is current.

And I srongly object to your Characterization of Catholic schools-- statisticly far more faithful church attending magestiruim following Catholics come out of Catholic schools that anywhere else. [/quote]
It all depends on the school.

There are good Catholic schools and there are bad Catholic schools.

Unfortunately a lot of "Catholic" schools essentially abandoned the Faith since the '60s and became Catholic in name only.
However, there are still good Catholic schools out there, including a number of new ones.

[Don John of Austria]

Your joking?


Well First it was written directly in answer to the public schooling forming in Europe at the time, but lets look at the Statement.



48. Catholics may approve of the system of educating youth unconnected with Catholic faith and the power of the Church, and which regards the knowledge of merely natural things, and only, or at least primarily, the ends of earthly social life. -- Ibid.




It is an error to approve of a system of educating youth unconnected with the Church. This means a SYSTEM just like it says, any system of education which is unconnected to the Church is condemned... is the Public school system connected with the Church? If not it is an error to approve of it, further more the error is explained further asa system ---which regards the knowledge of merely natural things... therefore it is an error to approve of any system which does not address the preternatural, and supernatural things.. as well as philosophical things such as ethics and morals. Furthermore, it is an error to approve of a system which regards only or primarly on the ends of earthly social life...hmmm have you ever read any of Dewey the archtect of [i]our[/i] public system ( yes the library guy) he stresses that the entire point of the Public school system was to make people "good americans" above all other things. No this was and is a condemnation of Public Education... in fact that fact has never really even been seriously disputed by anyone of note.

[Don John of Austria]

Socrates.

There are bad catholic schools but on the whole those who are products of catholic educatin are more involved in te Church in every way. At least according to Father Burrell of Notre Dame University's studies. By the way they also beat out all other schools of any kind in all areas of education except secondary Science ( not enough money for lab materials) and that area was inconclusive, only Jewish day schools came anywhare close in the other areas of education.

Edited December 3, 2004 by Don John of Austria

[Ash Wednesday]

No, I was not joking. Was that directed towards me?

I was questioning the interpretation and offering my understanding of it in the context of how youth were catechized prior to the latter part of the 20th century. Weren't most if not all Catholic children educated in Catholic schools? And if the public schools were being set up, was he addressing the problem with regards to Catholics allowing their children to attend public school when in fact they needed to be attending the Catholic schools, where otherwise they would not be catechized or taught anything, as said, outside of the natural world? In the context of the times, the condemnation makes sense.

I've just never heard of whether or not you attended Catholic school as being a matter of being excommunicable offense. Maybe I am misinterpreting this but there are a lot of Catholics out there where no Catholic schools even exist. I grew up attending a public school because while we had a parish, there was no Catholic school in our town. It was closed in the 1970s.

[Don John of Austria]

Not attending is not an excommunicable offence, saying that Public education is okay, or acceptable or "just as good" or any other form of approval IS an excommunicable offence---- the Church has never required anyone to attend a Catholic school where none existed.

Edited December 3, 2004 by Don John of Austria

[Ash Wednesday]

Okay -- thanks for the clarification. And that does make sense -- certainly one form of schooling is not "just as good" as another.

It's too bad our local Catholic school here closed in the 70s. The local "Catholic kids" were educated in the faith much better before then.

[Phatmasser777]

The same question could be asked for Bush since he contradicts many Church rules.

[InHisHands381]

So are you telling me that because my parents chose not to put me in a Catholic school because 1) They may not be the most active Catholics in the world, 2) They couldn't afford it, and 3) They didn't know about the whole excommunicable thing, that I got an inferior education and should be excommunicated?!?!? I may be going a little over the edge, but that's the way it sounds to me!

[i]*What I am about to say does not necessarily mean I voted for Kerry or think he is a better option than Bush - I just think people don't take it into consideration, so I'm tossing some ideas out there!*[/i]

And as far as the voting for Kerry thing goes, Aluigi says:
[quote]we must first stop legalized murder and promote respect for human life from conception till natural death[/quote]

So we must stop legalized murder? What about the death penalty? I know that killing people via capital punishment doesn't kill anywhere near as many people as abortion. I also understand that the babies killed by abortion are innocent whereas those killed by the death penalty are [i]supposedly[/i] guilty. But what is the value of a human life? In my opinion, it is infinite! So what is infinity times 40,000,000? Infinity times a few thousand? Either way, we are destroying infinitely valuable lives! Remeber, we must "promote respect for human life from conception till [b]natural death[/b]" While it is clearly obvious that Kerry would not preven taking life, Bush avidly supports it and seeks to put more and more people on death row every day (especially when he was governor of Texas)! Kerry is not out campaigning for and encouraging people to get abortions...
And one other comment on the argument I often get about people being "guilty" who are on death row. So, maybe they are guilty. Maybe they're not. But if you murder a guilty person, have you given them a chance to repent for what they've done? No. Who knows...that person could become completely repentant for their sin years down the road and we have just taken away their opportunity for salvation....

This only one thing that I strongly think people need to consider. There are more, too. People forget about the in between conception and a natural death sometimes...being pro-life also entails improving the quality of lives. Who's social programs will do a better job of that? Who's education programs will do a better job of that?

This post may rub some people the wrong way, but I feel like if it's necessary to rub people the wrong way in order to point out that abortion is not the only evil in this world, I'm more than willing to do that. I am in no way saying that I don't completely despise abortion or any of the other "5 non-negotiables"...But there is more to life than just those.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]So are you telling me that because my parents chose not to put me in a Catholic school because 1) They may not be the most active Catholics in the world, 2) They couldn't afford it, and 3) They didn't know about the whole excommunicable thing, that I got an inferior education and should be excommunicated?!?!? I may be going a little over the edge, but that's the way it sounds to me!
[/quote]


I am saying that the Church ahs already stated that if you are forbidden to support any form of education not connected with the Catholic Church and that the Idea that such a system of Education is acceptable has been condemned as a heresy, and that promotion of any Heresy can and should carry withit the penelty of excommunication. And yes I am saying that on the whole Public education in all subject areas is inferior to Catholic Education, and therefore on the whole children who attend public school recieve an education inferior to those who attend Catholic school.

[Micheal5403]

[quote]And yes I am saying that on the whole Public education in all subject areas is inferior to Catholic Education, and therefore on the whole children who attend public school recieve an education inferior to those who attend Catholic school.
[/quote]

Are you refering to religious or academic education.

[Don John of Austria]

Both.

Edited December 11, 2004 by Don John of Austria

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='InHisHands381' date='Dec 11 2004, 03:11 PM'] So are you telling me that because my parents chose not to put me in a Catholic school because 1) They may not be the most active Catholics in the world, 2) They couldn't afford it, and 3) They didn't know about the whole excommunicable thing, that I got an inferior education and should be excommunicated?!?!? I may be going a little over the edge, but that's the way it sounds to me!

[i]*What I am about to say does not necessarily mean I voted for Kerry or think he is a better option than Bush - I just think people don't take it into consideration, so I'm tossing some ideas out there!*[/i]

And as far as the voting for Kerry thing goes, Aluigi says:


So we must stop legalized murder? What about the death penalty? I know that killing people via capital punishment doesn't kill anywhere near as many people as abortion. I also understand that the babies killed by abortion are innocent whereas those killed by the death penalty are [i]supposedly[/i] guilty. But what is the value of a human life? In my opinion, it is infinite! So what is infinity times 40,000,000? Infinity times a few thousand? Either way, we are destroying infinitely valuable lives! Remeber, we must "promote respect for human life from conception till [b]natural death[/b]" While it is clearly obvious that Kerry would not preven taking life, Bush avidly supports it and seeks to put more and more people on death row every day (especially when he was governor of Texas)! Kerry is not out campaigning for and encouraging people to get abortions...
And one other comment on the argument I often get about people being "guilty" who are on death row. So, maybe they are guilty. Maybe they're not. But if you murder a guilty person, have you given them a chance to repent for what they've done? No. Who knows...that person could become completely repentant for their sin years down the road and we have just taken away their opportunity for salvation....

This only one thing that I strongly think people need to consider. There are more, too. People forget about the in between conception and a natural death sometimes...being pro-life also entails improving the quality of lives. Who's social programs will do a better job of that? Who's education programs will do a better job of that?

This post may rub some people the wrong way, but I feel like if it's necessary to rub people the wrong way in order to point out that abortion is not the only evil in this world, I'm more than willing to do that. I am in no way saying that I don't completely despise abortion or any of the other "5 non-negotiables"...But there is more to life than just those. [/quote]
Abortion is wrong and condemned by the Church, the death penalty is not.

The idea that you will die on such and such a day by lethal injection would be a great reason to make your peace with God. If that doesn't lead you to God, nothing will.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]Abortion is wrong and condemned by the Church, the death penalty is not.

The idea that you will die on such and such a day by lethal injection would be a great reason to make your peace with God. If that doesn't lead you to God, nothing will. [/quote]


Amen!

[cmotherofpirl]

Its not mine, its is a paraphrase from Cardinal George

[InHisHands381]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Dec 11 2004, 01:54 PM'] Abortion is wrong and condemned by the Church, the death penalty is not.

The idea that you will die on such and such a day by lethal injection would be a great reason to make your peace with God. If that doesn't lead you to God, nothing will. [/quote]
Well, I believe Pope John Paul II said that there is no acceptable reason for capital punishment unless you are in a third world country where there is no means of protecting society from a dangerous individual (I'm not sure exactly where or when this statement was made, but I can try and find out if need be). That to me pretty much sounds like the Church, or at least the pope (who represents the Church) is against the death penalty.


But, yes, I do understand that abortion is a larger issue at hand and that the Church as a whole has spoken more on the issue of it. I never intended to say that it wasn't. However, I just think that many many people get so wrapped up in the fight against abortion that they forget those are not the only people the government is saying it's okay to murder. I also think they forget about where those aborted babies of families who can't afford to raise another child might grow up had they not been killed (*not saying they should be aborted, just that there are homeless children on the streets with their parents who chose life...*) It seems like people are all about the fight to keep babies from being killed in their mothers' wombs but then don't care what happens to them when they are born. I'm just trying to remind people that being pro-life is more than just the "5 non-negotiable" issues. I do understand that we must begin there, but too many people stop there.

As for the second part of your statement. We have no idea what is in people's hearts - only God does. We cannot judge whether or not they have repented and if they haven't when they will. Logically, yes, they would repent by knowing they are going to die at a specified time. Realistically, no, that may not always be the case....And if that person has made their peace with God, should we still kill them?

Edited December 11, 2004 by InHisHands381