What here contradicts RCC teaching?

[ICTHUS]

Hey folks, I was reading this the other day and I thought "this sounds remarkably Council-of-Trent-ish". I'm not going to tell you the source until I get a few people to tell me their opinion (please don't look it up) - also, if possible I'd like some of the Church Scholars like Apotheoun to give me their scholarly opinions on this

[quote]I. God has endued the will of man with that natural liberty, that is neither forced, nor, by any absolute necessity of nature, determined good, or evil.[1]

II. Man, in his state of innocency, had freedom, and power to will and to do that which was good and well pleasing to God;[2] but yet, mutably, so that he might fall from it.[3]

III. Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good accompanying salvation:[4] so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,[5] and dead in sin,[6] is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.[7]

IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9] yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.[10]

V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.[11][/quote]

Edited November 28, 2004 by ICTHUS

[homeschoolmom]

I am pretty sure I know what this is from... but I don't want to spoil your "fun," ICTHUS... I have no opinion on it, though...

[Guest Aluigi]

i think this is from that thing... what's it called?........ that confession of faith protestants are always referring to...

not sure if it's correct.. part of it sounds a little shady but i don't know, i say i'll decline to comment at this time.

[M.SIGGA]

this doesn't answer your question, but I'd like to know what (IV) means.

[MagiDragon]

[quote]Man, by his fall into a state of sin, has wholly lost all ability of will to any spiritual good[/quote]

they should have skipped either the 'wholly' or the 'all.' We can still will to do good, even in our fallen state. This quote seems to deny that.

It should have said that we have damaged our ability to tell what is most good. We seek our own pleasures which *are* good, but they aren't as good as what we *should* be doing. i.e. i want sex. sex is good. waiting for sex until marriage is better. if i chose to have sex before marriage, i would be choosing a good thing, but it's not what God wants me to do; it's not the *best* thing, that makes it evil. The right thing at the wrong time is the wrong thing.

still reading . . .

by my last statement, the next part of your quote fails:
[quote]so as, a natural man, being altogether averse from that good,[/quote]

We aren't averse to *all* spiritual good, we're simply more inclined toward physical good.

[quote]is not able, by his own strength, to convert himself, or to prepare himself thereunto.[/quote]

I think this holds up: we *can't* pull ourselves up to heaven.

[quote]IV. When God converts a sinner, and translates him into the state of grace, He frees him from his natural bondage under sin;[8] and, by His grace alone, enables him freely to will and to do that which is spiritually good;[9] yet so, as that by reason of his remaining corruption, he does not perfectly, or only, will that which is good, but does also will that which is evil.[10][/quote]

I feel like there's something wrong here, but i can't put my finger on it. I guess i'll let it pass with some reservations.

[quote]V. The will of man is made perfectly and immutably free to do good alone in the state of glory only.[11][/quote]

Aight this line i can swallow. Sounds like good solid theology to me.

sorry i couldn't help any more than that. *shrugs* i'm not really that great at this type of thing.

Peace,
Joe

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 28 2004, 04:40 PM'] i think this is from that thing... what's it called?........ that confession of faith protestants are always referring to...
[/quote]
Bah, you spoiled my fun. It's a chapter from the Presbyterian Confession of Faith, the Westminster Confession.

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='MagiDragon' date='Nov 28 2004, 04:47 PM']
they should have skipped either the 'wholly' or the 'all.' We can still will to do good, even in our fallen state. This quote seems to deny that.

It should have said that we have damaged our ability to tell what is most good. We seek our own pleasures which *are* good, but they aren't as good as what we *should* be doing. i.e. i want sex. sex is good. waiting for sex until marriage is better. if i chose to have sex before marriage, i would be choosing a good thing, but it's not what God wants me to do; it's not the *best* thing, that makes it evil. The right thing at the wrong time is the wrong thing.
[/quote]
I just wanted to point out, MagiDragon, that the point says "spiritual good", not natural good. There is a big difference between the two.

[Guest Aluigi]

so that'd be supernatural good it's refering to, which of course without God's help no man can approach on his own, that's why it's SUPERnatural

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Nov 28 2004, 04:51 PM'] Bah, you spoiled my fun. It's a chapter from the Presbyterian Confession of Faith, the Westminster Confession. [/quote]
I knew it...

[Brother Adam]

lol. Council of trentish eh?

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Nov 28 2004, 05:23 PM'] lol. Council of trentish eh? [/quote]
I don't know. It sounded like something a Roman Catholic might say. Let's dialogue on this. If parts of this are wrong, I want to know why you think so.