mulls Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 just so nobody complains about changing the topic and such, and since i don't have pm'ing privileges, i'll let this be the place where you can say what you need to say to me. let's start concerning the following quote: [quote]If you loved Christ, you would follow Christ, even if it leads you where you don't want to go.[/quote] wow. questioning my love for my Lord? you just got real personal man, real real personal. i doubt you would ever say such a thing to a man's face. i have all sorts of things to say to you right now, but i won't go as low as my ego wants me too. all i will say is that your religious pride is currently getting the best of you. you have no idea from where and through what Jesus has brought me, and where He's taking me from here on out. go ahead, question my beliefs, my doctrine, my historical education, whatever, but stay out of my relationship with Jesus. you don't know where you're stepping right now.....it's cleary out of bounds. i love Jesus. i don't care if that doesn't convince you or anyone else here, but i'll say it loud and say it proud I LOVE MY SAVIOR. i don't even know where you want to go from here, but the ball's in your court. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 Although Ironmonk perhaps could have elaborated, I think he may have been thinking along the lines of: "If you love me, keep my commandments." It's a verse from one of the Gospels, I'm not looking it up right now. That said, I'm sure you've learned by now that it's sometimes not constructive to dialogue with Ironmonk, haven't you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted November 27, 2004 Author Share Posted November 27, 2004 [quote name='Good Friday' date='Nov 27 2004, 02:46 AM'] That said, I'm sure you've learned by now that it's sometimes not constructive to dialogue with Ironmonk, haven't you? [/quote] haha that got a good chuckle out of me. you're right though, but sometimes you just can't let people get away with certain stuff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kilroy the Ninja Posted November 27, 2004 Share Posted November 27, 2004 This is not the appropriate place for this. Is this a debate? If you wish to speak with Ironmonk more privately (encouraged), there are numerous ways to get ahold of him (I believe he lists his personal websites in his profile). Let's keep the debate board for debates. Thanks and God Bless! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted November 28, 2004 Share Posted November 28, 2004 [quote name='mulls' date='Nov 27 2004, 03:01 AM'] just so nobody complains about changing the topic and such, and since i don't have pm'ing privileges, i'll let this be the place where you can say what you need to say to me. let's start concerning the following quote: wow. questioning my love for my Lord? you just got real personal man, real real personal. i doubt you would ever say such a thing to a man's face. i have all sorts of things to say to you right now, but i won't go as low as my ego wants me too. all i will say is that your religious pride is currently getting the best of you. you have no idea from where and through what Jesus has brought me, and where He's taking me from here on out. go ahead, question my beliefs, my doctrine, my historical education, whatever, but stay out of my relationship with Jesus. you don't know where you're stepping right now.....it's cleary out of bounds. i love Jesus. i don't care if that doesn't convince you or anyone else here, but i'll say it loud and say it proud I LOVE MY SAVIOR. i don't even know where you want to go from here, but the ball's in your court. [/quote] What I meant by that was that if there is no other logical answer... then one must follow what appears to be true. i.e. the Catholic Church. Facts in black - [color=blue]Logic in blue[/color]: Christ said the Church would not be overcome. [color=blue]Then the Church would have to be around in 33 AD, 300 AD, 500 AD, 1500 AD, today, and tomorrow.[/color] Christ said that the Church would be like a city on a mountain which cannot be hidden. [color=blue]There will be ample proof for anyone looking to know which Church was established by Christ.[/color] Christ said that the Church would be guided in all truth by the Holy Spirit. [color=blue]Truth cannot contradict Truth. All denominations cannot be the Church spoken of in Scripture because they all contradict each other.[/color] Christ gave the power to forgive sins to the disciples. [color=blue]Disciples can forgive sins.[/color] Christ gave the power to make new disciples to the disciples... therefore the new disciples can forgive sins also... unless it says otherwise in the NT. [color=blue]The true Church will teach that it's Priests can forgive sins in the name of Christ[/color] The Apostles taught that the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. [color=blue]The Churches teachings will always hold true.[/color] The Apostles taught One Faith. [color=blue]There will be one faith... the truth... which does not contradict itself.[/color] The Apostles taught that the Household of God was built on the foundation of the Apostles and Prophets with Christ as the cornerstone. [color=blue]The True Church will be able to show that it started with the Apostles and history will show it too.[/color] For hundreds of years of the beginning of Christianity, the term "Church" was understood to be the Catholic Church... with the successor of Peter. [color=blue]If the First Christians (before 700 AD) believed Church to mean the Catholic Church where Church is spoken of in the Bible, then it must mean Catholic Church. Because the Church will never be overcome and is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth.[/color] Encyclopedia Britannica and numerous other professional historians say that the Catholic Church was founded by Jesus and His Apostles. [color=blue]Britannica has nothing to gain from lying, nor do other professional historians. [/color] All of the Early Church Fathers were Catholic. [color=blue]If all the Early Church Fathers were Catholic, and the Church will not be overcome, then the Church established by Christ is the Catholic Church. Christ cannot be wrong.[/color] All those reasons, unless they can be rebutted, should lead you where you don't want to go... the Catholic Church... as they have many other anti-Catholics. I believe you posted that you don't want answers. [b]1 Peter 3:15 [/b] but sanctify Christ as Lord in your hearts. [u]Always be ready to give an explanation to anyone who asks you for a reason [/u]for your hope, I love Christ. If someone says I'm wrong about Christ, then I want them to show me... because I want to be right about Christ. I'm not infallible... are you? If you are not infallible, I would think that you would want the full truth. I would think that if you didn't know that you were wrong, that you would want someone to keep harping on you until you saw the truth so that you could have the full truth about Christ.... because you love Him. I would think that anyone who loves Christ when shown the above facts would either be able to rebut them with facts and references, or would affirm them and join Christ's Church. How can someone really love Christ if they don't want the full truth or if they think they have the full truth, how can they love Him if they don't care to defend Him? Bro... for what we know to be true... it must all add up. Christ is real. He's more real then you or me. Everything about Christ will never contradict. Everything about Christ will always have an answer. If I couldn't find answers to the facts given, and everything pointed to another Church that I didn't want to be in, I would have to go because I love Christ and I go where He wants me... not where I want to go. If all the facts pointed somewhere else... then that is where I want to be. If you are in Christ's Church - then show me so I can be too. One of us is wrong. Please, prove me wrong, so that I can learn the Truth if I don't already know it. [b]St. John 21:18 [/b] [color=red]Amen, amen, I say to you, when you were younger, you used to dress yourself and go where you wanted; but when you grow old, you will stretch out your hands, and someone else will dress you and [u][b]lead you where you do not want to go[/b][/u].[/color]" God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 (edited) Mulls, I'm curious of your thoughts on the above points... and if I'm wrong, please correct me with Scripture and Early Church Father writings that show I'm wrong. Or simply letting me know you read the above will do. God Bless, ironmonk Edited November 30, 2004 by ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 Ironmonk, That's an excellent post above... truly excellent, In fact I may have to rip you off... That being said... it is not productive to question someone's love of Christ and I think mulls has a valid grievance. Question the church, or the doctrine which he holds, as maybe the wrong place and way to experience that love, but do not question the fervency of his faith. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 [quote name='God Conquers' date='Nov 30 2004, 03:33 PM'] Ironmonk, That's an excellent post above... truly excellent, In fact I may have to rip you off... That being said... it is not productive to question someone's love of Christ and I think mulls has a valid grievance. Question the church, or the doctrine which he holds, as maybe the wrong place and way to experience that love, but do not question the fervency of his faith. [/quote] I believe that he needs to question it. He is going to get mad because he knows the answer... People who truly love Christ are going to have to do things that they don't want to. I think that he'll come home, hopefully before it's too late. There is no salvation for those who know Christ's Church and refuse to be in it. He knows what he must do... if he loves Christ. I simply do not understand how anyone can love Christ and reject what Christ wants. Love doesn't work that way. Love is not selfish. If I'm wrong, please show me so that I can be right for Christ. Show me with Scripture and Early Church Father writings. For the sake of his soul... I will be blunt... sometimes the Truth will offend, sugar coating hasn't been working. God Bless, ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Paladin D Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 [quote name='God Conquers' date='Nov 30 2004, 02:33 PM'] Ironmonk, That's an excellent post above... truly excellent, In fact I may have to rip you off... That being said... it is not productive to question someone's love of Christ and I think mulls has a valid grievance. Question the church, or the doctrine which he holds, as maybe the wrong place and way to experience that love, but do not question the fervency of his faith. [/quote] Agreed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brother Adam Posted November 30, 2004 Share Posted November 30, 2004 lol. I think I may to have to steal that work. I'll quote that you wrote it though. lol. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ironmonk Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 (edited) [quote name='Paladin D' date='Nov 30 2004, 07:21 PM'] Agreed. [/quote] We should always question our faith. We must ask our selves... Do I really Love Christ? If I do, then I would do what He wants, not what I want. If I don't, then I will do what I want and not what He wants. Someone who thinks that they love Christ, and willfully denies what Christ wants needs to have this pointed out to them. Sometimes people need help connecting the dots... Especially when it comes down to the salvation of their Soul. Denying that the Catholic Church is Church established by Christ when all facts show that it is the Church that Christ built and the person knows these facts and cannot prove that another Church was the Church established by Christ... is to loose all chance of salvation. It is refusing the Church established by Christ because they don't want it to be. They need to stop lying to themselves. I question ANYONE's love for Christ who knows the Catholic Church was established by Christ and refuses to be in it. There is no chance of salvation for these people until they accept what Christ has left us. They reject the ones Christ sent - therefore they reject Christ. [b]Luke 10:16[/b] "[color=red]He who hears you hears me, and he who rejects you rejects me, and he who rejects me rejects him who sent me[/color]" The above is what He said to the Apostles... the first Bishops of the Catholic Church. If any here disagree - show me where I am wrong with scripture and Catechism - and I will change my view for Christ. To save people from physical suicide from themselves, people are locked up, told things that will upset them.... Do you not realize how much more important is it to save them from spiritual suicide?! God Bless, ironmonk Edited December 1, 2004 by ironmonk Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
point5 Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 I too will be stealing that work from you ironmonk. petition to have his post in the Apologetics section under tracts Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 I am in agreement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Create an account or sign in to comment
You need to be a member in order to leave a comment
Create an account
Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!
Register a new accountSign in
Already have an account? Sign in here.
Sign In Now