Latin Mass

[sortacatholic]

In britain special permission doesn't have to be obtained from the diocesan bishop to celebrate Latin Mass, but it is not allowed to be the main service on a sunday - a novus ordo mass must be celebrated as the main parish mass on a sunday.

Also certain religious orders in the RC Church may follow their own liturgies (in Latin) for mass, rather than use the novus ordo.

-sortacatholic (but not quite)

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Nov 28 2004, 12:08 AM'] With a sacramental view of the Church you would understand (or acknowledge) that what takes place at Mass does not depend upon you understanding every word spoken, nor does the grace you recieve. The Sacrifice of the Mass takes place with or with anyone in the Church understanding a single word that is spoken.

That's the very short, very watered down version. [/quote]
Ah, I see.

Well, I would correct you, actually. I would need to have an [i]ex opere operato[/i] sacramental view of the Church. The purpose of the Divine Service, as well as for the dispensation of the Sacraments, is for the edification of the Saints - I hardly think that the Saints are edified by the minister babbling in a tongue unknown to them.

I actually didn't intend this to be a Catholic Church vs. Catholic Church debate. I wanted to ask a question... *sigh*

Edited November 28, 2004 by ICTHUS

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Nov 28 2004, 01:48 PM']The purpose of the Divine Service, as well as for the dispensation of the Sacraments, is for the edification of the Saints - I hardly think that the Saints are edified by the minister babbling in a tongue unknown to them.[/quote]
It is not only for the intellectual edification, but also for the [i]spiritual[/i] edification of the faithful. You recieve the same spiritual graces regardless of whether you understand the language. Therefore, edification is still achieved regardless of language.

when it comes to the intellectual edification of the faithful, i tend to agree that it's good to speak the language of the people. On the other hand, i think more people understood latin than could speak it, so it wouldn't really be 'babbling,' even if they weren't fluent.

Peace,
Joe

[ICTHUS]

[quote name='MagiDragon' date='Nov 28 2004, 02:09 PM'] when it comes to the intellectual edification of the faithful, i tend to agree that it's good to speak the language of the people. On the other hand, i think more people understood latin than could speak it, so it wouldn't really be 'babbling,' even if they weren't fluent.
[/quote]
I perhaps see your point - I understand spoken and written French better than I myself can speak and write it. Is this something like what you're describing?

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Nov 28 2004, 02:59 PM']I perhaps see your point - I understand spoken and written French better than I myself can speak and write it. Is this something like what you're describing?[/quote]
'tis [i]exactly[/i] what i'm describing.

[Socrates]

Latin was the "universal language" of Western Christendom for many centuries, including long after Luther. This continued into the nineteenth century in scientific use, in which scientific reports, etc. were written in Latin to be understood by scientists from many different countries. The scientific names of different species are still in Latin (or Greek).

Having an official translation in a "universal language" for the whole Latin Rite is easier than trying to make good, accurate translations into a multitude of languages. (There are still some serious problems with the English translations.)

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='ICTHUS' date='Nov 28 2004, 02:48 PM']
The purpose of the Divine Service, as well as for the dispensation of the Sacraments, is for the edification of the Saints - I hardly think that the Saints are edified by the minister babbling in a tongue unknown to them.

[/quote]
You would have to define "edification". Also, he is not babbeling in an unknown tongue TO THEM. The prayers are TO GOD, not to man. And I am quite certain God understands Latin. The Graces of the sacrament are obtained by the priest, acting in persona Christi, for the people. It does not matter one iota if they can translate word for word what he is saying. They know what he is doing.

Edited November 29, 2004 by popestpiusx

[MagiDragon]

umm . . . i think i said that . . . several hours ago . . . *scratches head*

did i fail to understand part of your statement? or maybe all of your statement? I can be pretty dense sometimes . . .

[popestpiusx]

Did I repeat what you posted? So very sorry. I was just skimming the thread.

NOTE TO ALL: IGNORE MY POST!

[MagiDragon]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Nov 28 2004, 10:54 PM'] Did I repeat what you posted? [/quote]
i dunno for certain, but i *think* you said the same thing. I was just trying to figure out what you said that was new and i couldn't find anything. *shrugs*

if you don't see anything, and i don't see anything, i guess there wasn't anything to be seen . . .

Peace,
Joe

[popestpiusx]

Sorry. I'll read the thread closer next time.

[Donna]

Magi, PSPX was replying to ICTHUS'.

Sigh. [i]RANT[/i]: The devil is laughing when the revered Latin Rite is so difficult in getting/getting to/putting up with the "Spinal Tap" list of stupid things and ppl's attitudes which always seem to go with this springtime o' Indult, wildy generous and appliction respected, not. No wonder ppl turn Eastern Rite or duck into the rural conservative parish.

Getting back to this arrogance, JPIIiloveyou, Cmom and hsmom. Are these ppl you know, or a general vibe from written/known circles?

PS: I've found groups or crowds of ppl at certain Indult Masses to be intolerable.
It [i]shouldn't[/i] matter as regards the Faith, but I'm finding out that it does, Precious. It can matter [i]very really much[/i], particuarly when one is in CRISIS what the human element does/is in the Church.

I speak across the board, in that last statement...I know the mother of a bi-polar, disruptive child who was asked (by her Methodist church) to take a break for awhile...I myself was [i]wangboobled[/i] by a pastor for genuflecting before GOD (so sorry), and invited to instead attend these other damned places where one can be disrespectful and disruptive (I kid you not)...and another lady whose family was thrown out of their Pentecostal freak-out for being...sinners needing HELP.

Please comment specifically on arrogance of Trads/Indulters, or make a new thread? (I don't always agree w/ the "stick to the subject" guideline, but when in Rome...)

[Apotheoun]

[quote name='Donna' date='Nov 29 2004, 01:03 AM'] [. . .] No wonder ppl turn Eastern Rite or duck into the rural conservative parish.

[/quote]
No one should change rites in order to get away from liturgical abuses. Instead, a person should only become Eastern Catholic if his spiritual and theological views fit into the mold of the Eastern Catholic tradition.



God bless,
Todd

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Apotheoun' date='Nov 29 2004, 04:16 AM'] No one should change rites in order to get away from liturgical abuses. Instead, a person should only become Eastern Catholic if his spiritual and theological views fit into the mold of the Eastern Catholic tradition.

[/quote]
After the Novus Ordo was promulgated many Catholic intellectuals (and others) fled to the East. Why? THere are probably a number of reasons. I know a good number of these people. Many of them switched rites canonically in the early 70's, others just started attending various Byzantine liturgies. I asked one theologian once why he left the Latin Rite. Basically he said that it was because the N.O. Whether it was that abuses were (and still are) so prevalent or just because of the thing itself, he said that he was unable to get any spiritual nourishment out of it and he didn't want to raise his kids in it. He and his wife found the Eastern rites very attractive because of their traditional foundation and spirituality. He's not a big fan of Eastern theology, at least not where it comes into serious conflict with Thomism. It's fairly common story it seems.

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='Donna' date='Nov 29 2004, 03:03 AM'] Getting back to this arrogance, JPIIiloveyou, Cmom and hsmom. Are these ppl you know, or a general vibe from written/known circles?
[/quote]
Yes... People I actually know in real life... Though it helps knowing them in real life because it helps temper my frustration with such people here. Since I know and love real flesh and blood people (who just happen to frustrate me to no end), I realize that such people that frustrate me here must, too, be lovable to someone...