Is this you?

[Catalyst]

Jesus died Aluigi because He took on my sins as well as yours. Jesus took on those sins so He could take power away from Satan...did you know Christ was in Hell those 3 days probably beating the snot out of Satan?

No where in the bible does it say Mary was assumed into heaven. Enoch yes, Elijah yes, Mary no.

For Mary to have been sinless she would have had to be born the same way Christ was. She was blessed amongst women because she was gonna carry the messiah prophesied about sinse Genesis.

[Guest Aluigi]

you have not adressed my argument. why does the angel gabriel say Mary has always been favorable to God and still is if she ever committed any sin?

[Guest Aluigi]

you are correct Jesus took on all our sins, this is why He died, He was sinless but took the place of sin.

you are correct the Bible never explicitly says Mary was taken into heaven, this is something we believe to be implied in Revelations. however, this is not the argument, the argument is whether or not Mary was sinless. yes, we were talking about all that because you brought up her death, but I want to focus here on whether or not Mary was sinless.

for Mary to have been sinless she would have to have been preserved from sin by Christ's Power.

Edited November 26, 2004 by Aluigi

[Quietfire]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Nov 26 2004, 03:10 AM']

why would God send Yeshua if people could be perfect anyhow?



[/quote]
First, understand. People cannot 'be perfect'. Only God has the power to give such a grace as that. To think that for one moment God doesnt have that ability, that power....would mean that you have limited God.

This is not possible. God is limitless. God can do anything.

Yes, God COULD create us all perfect.
But that would negate free will. We must [i]choose[/i] to be perfect, as best we can with the graces merited us by our cooperation with God.
It is not easy.

But for God to simply create us all 'perfect'.
Well then, this would be heaven on earth.

You dont get off that easy, you gotta work first....then get paid.

Pax

[Guest Aluigi]

Quietfire, that's his point that God doesn't create us all perfect. He was trying to use that point to say Mary wasn't created without original sin, He intended to say if God could create us all without original sin, why did Jesus have to come and die? The answer was that Mary only was created without original sin and the only reason for that was that the act of salvation, though it could be accomplished by Christ alone, had many supplemental aspects that completely reversed original sin, such as an anti-eve where Jesus is the anti-adam.

i await your interpretation of the Angel Gabriel's salutation.

-pax-

[Quietfire]

Reread my post Aluigi. I was not agreeing with him.

He asked :

why would God send Yeshua if people could be perfect anyhow?

I took his question to mean...Why doesnt God just create us all perfect.

Which brings us to free will. (another topic)

I cannot 'be perfect'. I can, however, with the grace of God, work to be as perfect as I can possibly be. The decisions though, to be in his grace or sin, are still mine. Looping this back to free will and works through faith.

Understand that we are all called to be perfect. I thought this was common knowledge here. (My bad.)

But today, at this moment, sitting here banging away at this keyboard, I am in a state of sin (betcha didnt know) and therefore not perfect. And someone (one of the saints) stated that we come into contact with the opportunity to sin seven times a day.

I thought I understood that both Catalyst and Delivery boy are aware of the teachings of the Church. Maybe I was wrong in assuming they would understand my intent.

My apologies.

[Guest Aluigi]

i know you were not agreeing with him. i was merely pointing out the context of his statement. i'm trying to keep this organized one topic at a time.

Edited November 26, 2004 by Aluigi

[Quietfire]

No problem.... :leave:

[Catalyst]

People find favour in God by being obediant. Mary was probably obediant to the Jewish law. The new covenant wouldn't effect her untill Christ was crucified.

Mary was HUMAN, just like me and you. Born into sin just like me and you. Hard to take yes I know, but yes a blessed women, as she was chosen to bear the messiah but still a woman tho...

She was not born of the spirit!!! If God could do that, why would He send Christ?? It totally negates His promises to us. Makes prophesy useless.

Nothing mystic about God either, He's reality.

[Balthazor]

Catalyst, i am not sure of your denomination, and I don't think you are Luthern, but a I am sure you are not Catholic....would you mind please going to the post that says "Luthern Beliefs" and answering the question. I would as many non-Catholic opinions as I can get.... thank you.

Now back to our regularily scheduled debate.

You know I really think that you underestimate Mary on so many levels. If God wanted to he could have just spontaniously generated Christ....like *Poof* and then he would have appeared. But he didn;t. Instead He, chose to have His Son, be born of a woman. Mary, quite literally gave Jesus his body. I mean do you really think that the woman that bore God would have the stain of original sin? I just want you to think about that a little.

God bless,

Balthazor

[Dave]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Nov 27 2004, 01:34 AM'] People find favour in God by being obediant. Mary was probably obediant to the Jewish law. The new covenant wouldn't effect her untill Christ was crucified.
[/quote]
God is God and can do whatever He wants. He made Mary free of original sin by virtue of Jesus' crucifixion by applying the merits from that one-time event to her prior to the crucifixion. Remember that God is outside of time and so whether or not the crucifixion had happened at that time meant nothing to Him.

[quote]Mary was HUMAN, just like me and you. Born into sin just like me and you. Hard to take yes I know, but yes a blessed women, as she was chosen to bear the messiah but still a woman tho...[/quote]

All you're doing here is repeating yourself despite the fact that you've been refuted. Yes, Mary is human, but it has already been proven to you that she was without sin and wasn't even born into it.

[quote]She was not born of the spirit!!! If God could do that, why would He send Christ?? It totally negates His promises to us. Makes prophesy useless. [/quote]

No, it doesn't negate His promise to us. Read what I said above regarding the first passage I quoted.

[Catalyst]

Do you not understand the consequences of the original sin?

[Dave]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Nov 27 2004, 02:12 AM'] Do you not understand the consequences of the original sin? [/quote]
Yes, I do understand them. But what are you trying to get at using that statement?

[Guest Aluigi]

Catalyst, the Angel Gabriel's words indicate she was always favorable to God and that she still was favorable to God at the moment of the annunciation. if at any point during her life she had sinned, it would have broken the chain of always before and still.

you're avoiding the question and spinning. no one said Mary was born of the Spirit. however, the angel Gabriel said she had always been and was presently favorable to God. that means every milisecond of her life. if for one milisecond she had sinned, the Angel couldn't use kecharitomene without telling a mistruth. please adress this, i have provided greek proof that this is the meaning of the scripture. you're saying that generally she found favor, but the greek is saying from the moment of her conception up until the Angel Gabriel spoke to her every second of her life was favorable to God. a sinful second could not be favorable to God.

[Quietfire]

Ok, I buttin' in again, maybe this time I can actually help.
This is an old post.

Understanding the Mother of God....part 1 of 2.


Here ya go....


Our understanding of Our Blessed Lady depends totally upon our understanding of her Son. Everything about her flows from her being Christ's mother; as our understanding of him grows, our understanding of her grows. It was so with the Church. By the year 500 the main dogmas about Christ had been defined (yes! 500 years people!) The Church's mind could now bear upon his Mother; we come to hear the Assumption and Immaculate Conception. It is so with ourselves: unless we have some knowledge of the doctrines of Trinity of Incarnation, we can still love her but cannot know her; and we know that loving without deep knowledge is only a shadow of loving.

Theoketos, said the Council of Ephesus in 431; she is the mother of God; the child she conceived and bore is God the Son. In his divine nature he had exited eternally. But his human nature he owed to her as much as anyone owes his human nature to his mother. There is nothing that makes my mother mine which is lacking in her relation to him as man. As God he was born of the Father before all ages; as man he was born at a particular point of time of the Virgin Mary. Do not think it sufficient to call her the mother of his human nature; for natures do not have mothers. She was mother, as yours or mine is, of the person born of her. And the person was God the Son. Most find this truth almost shattering in its greatness; it is not simply a biographical fact about Jesus which one notes but does not linger upon. There are those who do see it like that and so dismiss it. One imagines them saying, "Naturally, if God was to be born into our world, one would expect him to have a mother; but haveing brought him to birth she had done her duty and passes into the background." If though of all by such people, she is thought of with respect. But she is not often thought of. There is a type of religious mind which brushes creatures aside as irrelevant, indeed a distraction from the Absolute. The Absolute did not find them so. The Son died for them; for them the Father spared not his own Son (Rom 8:33)
I have put it this way of looking at her as a sort or rough outline of a whole state of mind. In its more extreme utterance it can be so comic that one almost forgets how tragic it is. On the outdoor platform I once had a questioner who said, solemnly: "I respect Christ's mother as I respect my own." The overwhelming temptation, when one hears such a remark, is to point to the difference between the two sons. But it is necessary to make clear why the difference makes a difference. We are not saying that mothers of holy children are better that mothers of less holy. The difference is not between on son who is holy and another who is less obviously so. It is between a Son who is God and a son who is man only.

To start simply, the Son existed before his mother. So that he is the only Son who is in a postition to choose who his mother should be. He could choose therefore, what every son would choose if he could, a mother who would suit him best. Further, it goes with the very heart of sonship that a son wants to give his mother gifts; and Christ, being God, could give her all that she would want. To his giving power there was no limit. And what above all she wanted was union with God, the completest union possible to a human being of her will with God's will, grace therefore in her soul.

He was her Son, and he gave it lavishly. She responded totally, so that she was sinless. It was her response to the grace of God that made her supreme in holiness- higher even than the highest angel, the Church tells us. We may pause for a moment to look at this truth. By nature she was lower than the least angel, for human nature as such is less than angelic. But, any relation in the order of grace is higher than any in the order of nature. It is by grace that we are closer to God; by our response, that is, to the created share in his own life that God offers us. By grace Our Lady outranks all created beings. But only because she responded to God's love more perfectly. St. John Chrysostom says, "She would not have been blessed, though she had borne him in the body, had she not heard the word of God and kept it."