Is this you?

[M.SIGGA]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Nov 26 2004, 02:10 AM'] Why did Mary die if she wasn't under sin? [/quote]
she didn't die. no ancient Christian tradition, whether Roman, Greek, Syrian, etc. has taught Mary died. all "coincidentally" understood for 2000 years she was assumed into heaven at the end of her life. there has never been a single feast or memorial or shrine or relic or tomb or date, etc. comemorating the death of the Virgin Mary anywhere at anytime, well of course until the late 16th century by the same group of people who turned St. Nicolas of Myra into Santa Claus.

[Guest Aluigi]

actually, it is quite likely that she did die. see my explanation above. Catholics are free to believe either that she did die or she didn't, but earliest Christian tradition says she did die, then was raised and assumed. Some say 3 days, some say this specific number of days i think a little less than 206 (don't know where it came from) but they all say she died, then was raised and assumed body and soul into heaven. these are in writings the Church declared non-canonical, not inspired by God. but they are still writings of early Christians giving insight into what they believed.

Edited November 26, 2004 by Aluigi

[Guest]

Romans 3 :23
All have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God. They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus.......

dont that prove that mary sinned ??

[Guest Aluigi]

no, God made two exceptions, one Christ by His own merits, the other Mary by Christ's merits, neither of which lived in Rome when Paul wrote that.

Edited November 26, 2004 by Aluigi

[StColette]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' date='Nov 26 2004, 03:31 AM'] Romans 3 :23
All have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God. They are justified freely by his grace through the redemption in Christ Jesus.......

[/quote]
"All" does that mean babies too ? or the mentally disabled ?

[Guest]

[quote name='StColette' date='Nov 26 2004, 03:32 AM'] "All" does that mean babies too ? or the mentally disabled ? [/quote]
well i would hope not
but wuts his face lol
i cant think of his name
the other day was tryen to say babies are very popular in hells attendence

[Guest Aluigi]

mentally disabled can commit sins, they just aren't deemed culpable for them (for those that don't speak Catholic-ese, as this isn't a common term, that means they are not blamed for the sin they commit because they don't understand what they are doing)

[StColette]

[quote name='Delivery Boy' date='Nov 26 2004, 03:34 AM'] well i would hope not
but wuts his face lol
i cant think of his name
the other day was tryen to say babies are very popular in hells attendence [/quote]

[Guest Aluigi]

DB, Don John? lol, well, kind of. he didn't say they committed sins, just that the original sin they had on their soul made them not desire God or heaven, thus descend into hell. this is neither confirmed nor denied by the Catholic Church. hehe.. but that's a whole other topic.

BACK to Mary, because personally I think pointint out babies and mentally disabled are a cheap attempt at exceptions, no offence to the proponent of the argument . Mary and Jesus as exceptions are completely different than babies as exceptions.

[Guest]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 26 2004, 03:37 AM'] DB, Don John? lol, well, kind of. he didn't say they committed sins, just that the original sin they had on their soul made them not desire God or heaven, thus descend into hell. this is neither confirmed nor denied by the Catholic Church. hehe.. but that's a whole other topic.

[/quote]
lol
ya don john
i couldnt rember his name

[StColette]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 26 2004, 03:37 AM']
BACK to Mary, because personally I think pointing out babies and mentally disabled are a cheap attempt at exceptions, no offence to the proponent of the argument . [/quote]
no problem deary

[Guest]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 26 2004, 03:32 AM'] no, God made two exceptions, one Christ by His own merits, the other Mary by Christ's merits, neither of which lived in Rome when Paul wrote that. [/quote]
woulnt have paul know'n though if she was sinless ??
therefore adding her name along with Christ Jesus
since he said "there is no distinction, all have sinned and are deprived of the glory of God " ???????




and dont get me wrong
I try to pray to mary every night
im just debateing here
i love mary very much so

[Catalyst]

no...no where in the bible does it state that.

Christs merits, infused in her??? Oh man...yeah God can do anything but He has to keep good on His promises.

Why would God go through thousands of years of old testament law if He could just make people perfect before the prphesy of the messiah and His tasks where fullfilled.

Saying that over looks why the whole old testament told of Jesus' comming.

Mary was born into sin and therefor a sinner, and this doctrine is the doctrine that you get from your priests. None of it is biblical..infused????? I'm going to bed, I talk to you all tomarrow and God bless, and i pray you get a revelation of Gods love for you and His will for all man in Jesus name, Amen.

another thing.....

The Sacrifice of the Mass
A Catholic mass is by definition the sacrifice of Christ (Catechism 1322, 1338). The Baltimore Catechism (Confraternity Edition of 1949) says, "Christ gives us His own body and blood in the holy Eucharist first, to be offered as a sacrifice commemorating and renewing for all time the sacrifice of the cross" (Catechism 356).

While the Catholic catechisms quote the passages that speak of Christ dying once, they also teach that the priest miraculously transforms the bread and wine into Christ's real body, and that Jesus is then sacrificed anew. "The blood is real blood (it looks like wine and tastes like wine at Mass, but it is truly the Blood of Christ."[1]

Although there is some variation among Protestants on the meaning of the Lord's supper, without exception biblical Protestants teach that the sacrament is not a renewal or a revisitation of the bodily sacrifice of Christ. Rather it is a remembrance and a memorial use of symbols blessed by God to the benefit of the humbled believer.

This contrast is far more than a controversy of words. It goes to the very heart of the difference between Catholicism and Protestant Christianity. Protestant faith denies that the church has the power to perform the mass's "miracle of transubstantiation," and it further denies that the Lord's Supper's purpose is to see accomplished the death of Christ all over again.


"Nor did He [Jesus Christ] enter heaven to offer himself again and again..."
-Hebrews 9:25 (NIV) (see Hebrews 9:25-10:18)

and another..
Confession of sins to a priest (a mediator between God and man) [see I Timothy 2:5 - "For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" / I Peter 2:5 (speaking of all Christians being a priesthood)]

Prayers to dead saints (see Deuteronomy 18:10-12 - "Let no one be found among you who... who consults the dead. Anyone who does these things is detestable to the LORD...")

Offering of masses, prayers and rosaries for those who suffer in "purgatory" (see Hebrews 9:27 - "...Man is destined to die once, and after that to face judgment.")

The Priestly System
The Old Testament clearly established a priesthood (the Levites) to serve Israel. This earthly priesthood was a symbol of the Messiah's eternal priesthood. The book of Hebrews explains its purpose and fulfillment. Historic Protestantism, because of its study of the Scriptures, proclaimed the "universal priesthood of all believers." The special office of priest was fulfilled in our Savior, and thus came to an end in Him.

Although Catholicism acknowledges this universal priesthood, it sustains a "weak and beggarly element" of the old covenant and assigns to its priests remarkable power as pastors of the church. This system is essential to the power of the Catholic Church and cannot be justified by the Bible.

One of the finest scholars of Roman Catholic Scripture, Raymond E. Brown, shocked Catholics when he discovered that:


When we move from the Old Testament to the New Testament, it is striking that while there are pagan priests and Jewish priests on the scene, no individual Christian is ever specifically identified as a priest. The Epistle to the Hebrews speaks of the high priesthood of Jesus by comparing his death and entry into heaven with the actions of the Jewish high priest who went into the Holy of Holies in the Tabernacle once a year with a offering for himself and for the sins of his people (Hebrews 9:6-7).
But it is noteworthy that the author of Hebrews does not associate the priesthood of Jesus with the Eucharist or the Last Supper; neither does he suggest that other Christians are priests in the likeness of Jesus. In fact, the once-for-all atmosphere that surrounds the priesthood of Jesus in Hebrews 10:12-14, has been offered as an explanation of why there are no Christian priests in the New Testament period.[1]


Biblical Protestantism repudiates the Catholic priesthood system, and would consider its proposed imposition a radical violation of its conscience before God

[Guest Aluigi]

Delivery Boy, you have a good heart from what I can tell. it's about what Paul was intending to say. Paul was telling the Christians in Rome, don't fool yourself you've all sinned. He didn't use the subject "YOU" rather "ALL" because it was a figure of speech. kinda like "all of you". his inspired words apply to all mankind, all it is adressed to (originally only the Christians in Rome, but by God's will the entire Bible is adressed to all mankind. it was not adressed to Mary.)

Edited November 26, 2004 by Aluigi

[Guest Aluigi]

Catalyst, you failed to adress my supplemental argument which was also brought up by the first Christian readers of the Bible, that waiting thousands of years this was to be the big action, a complete reversal of Adam and Eve's actions. Mary reverses Eve's actions, Jesus reverses Adam's actions (Paul even refers to Him as the New Adam, Mary is not refered to as the New Eve in scripture but that is how her actions are interpretted by the Early Church)

you should stay on topic, which is why though I could, I'm not going to adress your last argument unless you post it in another thread so we can stay on topic here, as we have gotten into a very compelling argument about Mary