Is this you?

[Guest Aluigi]

i will concede to you that it is possible through the Bible to maybe say Mary was born with original sin, because a person with original sin before the New Covenant could have favor with God. however, once Christ made it possible to release one from original sin, someone who remained in original sin could not have God's favor. however, if every milisecond of her life she had God's favor, the verb tense indicates perpetual favor all the way up to the current point where the angel is saying it, she could not have committed any sin herself. as far as i'm concerned, she was also born without original sin, all you can do is say it's possible for her to have had it, but i propose it is unlikely that someone who had original sin wouldn't commit any sin. therefore, the fact that she had his favor every milisecond of her life therefore could not have been sinning even for a milisecond indicates it quite possible for her not to have original sin either.


I didn't intend to indicate you switched [u]topics[/u] but that you switched my argument, because i never indicated she taught Jesus all He knew.

Edited November 26, 2004 by Aluigi

[Guest Aluigi]

it was through God's amazing power that transcends time and space that she was spared original sin through a mystical baptism infusing Mary at the moment of her creation with Christ's righteousness. This was done to make a perfect reversal of the event of original sin.

PS: i'm enjoying this conversation . I would be very interested in your views on this topic: [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=24538"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=24538[/url] if you have the time.

Edited November 26, 2004 by Aluigi

[Catalyst]

the only way mary could be under the new testament is when the new convenant was cemented by the prophesy fullfilled by the lamb of God. The only way Mary could have been born with out sin is if she was concieved the same way Yeshua was

[StColette]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Nov 26 2004, 02:57 AM'] The only way Mary could have been born with out sin is if she was concieved the same way Yeshua was [/quote]
Are you sure that's the only way ? remember anything is possible with God If He wants something a certain way then He makes it that way

[Catalyst]

Baptism doesn't wash away sins, thats the blood of Jesus...its an open personal covenant with God.

People back than weren't babies when baptized either but older.

Edited November 26, 2004 by Catalyst

[Guest]

couldnt she have sinned, but been under grace her whole life so the sins she did commit were non-existant
jus like how christians, dont sin, becuz were under grace
paul tells us not to use this as an excuse to sin, since this grace is given to us.....
paul tells us also whoever sins is of the devil.........so doesnt grace take away any sins that would be commited anyways ? therefore keeping you in unison with God Almighty ?

[Guest Aluigi]

Catalyst, wrong. entire families were baptized, including the converted person's infants.

baptism cleanses you of sin, Jesus says you must be born again of WATER and the Spirit. Water Baptism is a sacrament, meaning it is a visible sign used to convey invisible Grace. When God became flesh, it marked the age in which God would use physical things to convey His grace so that physical people such as us could see and be assured of it all (He had used physical things to convey invisible grace before as well though, the bronze serpent, the passover lamb's blood)

Delivery Boy, at the moment you are sinning, in that present, you are not favorable but displeasing to God. not to say that you as a person are displeasing, but as your actions displease God His favor doesn't rest upon you at that moment. Immediately after that moment you could be pleasing to God, but not while your committing sin. That doesn't mean you're loved any less at that moment, just that at that moment you are greiving God and not being favorable to Him.

Edited November 26, 2004 by Aluigi

[Catalyst]

Collette...Mary was concieved by a man and woman right?

what curse is every person born into?

why would God send Yeshua if people could be perfect anyhow?

why would God manifest Himself as Yeshua if there already was a perfect person?

Why did Mary die if she wasn't under sin?

Edited November 26, 2004 by Catalyst

[StColette]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 26 2004, 03:05 AM'] wrong. entire families were baptized, including the converted person's infants.

[/quote]
for examples to help out Al's point

Gen. 17:12, Lev. 12:3 - these texts show the circumcision of eight-day old babies as the way of entering into the Old Covenant - Col 2:11-12 - however, baptism is the new "circumcision" for all people of the New Covenant. Therefore, baptism is for babies as well as adults. God did not make His new Covenant narrower than the old Covenant. To the contrary, He made it wider, for both Jews and Gentiles, infants and adults.

Job 14:1-4 - man that is born of woman is full of trouble and unclean. Baptism is required for all human beings because of our sinful human nature.

Psalm 51:5 - we are conceived in the iniquity of sin. This shows the necessity of baptism from conception.

Matt. 18:2-5 - Jesus says unless we become like children, we cannot enter into heaven. So why would children be excluded from baptism?

Matt 19:14 - Jesus clearly says the kingdom of heaven also belongs to children. There is no age limit on entering the kingdom, and no age limit for being eligible for baptism.

Mark 10:14 - Jesus says to let the children come to Him for the kingdom of God also belongs to them. Jesus says nothing about being too young to come into the kingdom of God.

Mark 16:16 - Jesus says to the crowd, "He who believes and is baptized will be saved." But in reference to the same people, Jesus immediately follows with "He who does not believe will be condemned." This demonstrates that one can be baptized and still not be a believer. This disproves the Protestant argument that one must be a believer to be baptized. There is nothing in the Bible about a "believer's baptism."

Luke 18:15 – Jesus says, “Let the children come to me.” The people brought infants to Jesus that he might touch them. This demonstrates that the receipt of grace is not dependent upon the age of reason.

Acts 2:38 - Peter says to the multitude, "Repent and be baptized.." Protestants use this verse to prove one must be a believer (not an infant) to be baptized. But the Greek translation literally says, "If you repent, then each one who is a part of you and yours must each be baptized” (“Metanoesate kai bapistheto hekastos hymon.”) This, contrary to what Protestants argue, actually proves that babies are baptized based on their parents’ faith. This is confirmed in the next verse.

Acts 2:39 - Peter then says baptism is specifically given to children as well as adults. “Those far off” refers to those who were at their “homes” (primarily infants and children). God's covenant family includes children. The word "children" that Peter used comes from the Greek word "teknon" which also includes infants.

Luke 1:59 - this proves that "teknon" includes infants. Here, John as a "teknon" (infant) was circumcised. See also Acts 21:21 which uses “teknon” for eight-day old babies. So baptism is for infants as well as adults.

Acts 10:47-48 - Peter baptized the entire house of Cornelius, which generally included infants and young children. There is not one word in Scripture about baptism being limited to adults.

Acts 16:15 - Paul baptized Lydia and her entire household. The word "household" comes from the Greek word "oikos" which is a household that includes infants and children.

Acts 16:15 - further, Paul baptizes the household based on Lydia's faith, not the faith of the members of the household. This demonstrates that parents can present their children for baptism based on the parents' faith, not the children's faith.

Acts 16:30-33 - it was only the adults who were candidates for baptism that had to profess a belief in Jesus. This is consistent with the Church's practice of instructing catechumens before baptism. But this verse does not support a "believer's baptism" requirement for everyone. See Acts 16:15,33. The earlier one comes to baptism, the better. For those who come to baptism as adults, the Church has always required them to profess their belief in Christ. For babies who come to baptism, the Church has always required the parents to profess the belief in Christ on behalf of the baby. But there is nothing in the Scriptures about a requirement for ALL baptism candidates to profess their own belief in Christ (because the Church has baptized babies for 2,000 years).

Acts 16:33 - Paul baptized the jailer (an adult) and his entire household (which had to include children). Baptism is never limited to adults and those of the age of reason. See also Luke 19:9; John 4:53; Acts 11:14; 1 Cor. 1:16; and 1 Tim. 3:12; Gen. 31:41; 36:6; 41:51; Joshua 24:15; 2 Sam. 7:11, 1 Chron. 10:6 which shows “oikos” generally includes children.

Rom. 5:12 - sin came through Adam and death through sin. Babies' souls are affected by Adam's sin and need baptism just like adult souls.

Rom. 5:15 - the grace of Jesus Christ surpasses that of the Old Covenant. So children can also enter the new Covenant in baptism. From a Jewish perspective, it would have been unthinkable to exclude infants and children from God's Covenant kingdom.

1 Cor. 1:16 - Paul baptized the household ("oikos") of Stephanus. Baptism is not limited to adults.

Eph. 1:1; Col. 1:2 - Paul addresses the "saints" of the Church, and these include the children he addresses in Eph. 6:1 and Col. 3:20. Children become saints of the Church only through baptism.

Eph. 2:3 - we are all by nature children of wrath, in sin, like all mankind. Infants are no exception. See also Psalm 51:5 and Job 14:1-4 which teach us we are conceived in sin and born unclean.

2 Thess. 3:10 - if anyone does not work let him not eat. But this implies that those who are unable to work should still be able to eat. Babies should not starve because they are unable to work, and should also not be denied baptism because they are unable to make a declaration of faith.

Matt. 9:2; Mark 2:3-5 - the faith of those who brought in the paralytic cured the paralytic's sins. This is an example of the forgiveness of sins based on another's faith, just like infant baptism. The infant child is forgiven of sin based on the parents' faith.

Matt. 8:5-13 - the servant is healed based upon the centurion's faith. This is another example of healing based on another's faith. If Jesus can heal us based on someone else’s faith, then He can baptize us based on someone else’s faith as well.

Mark 9:22-25 - Jesus exercises the child's unclean spirit based on the father's faith. This healing is again based on another's faith.

1 Cor. 7:14 – Paul says that children are sanctified by God through the belief of only one of their parents.

Exodus 12:24-28 - the Passover was based on the parent's faith. If they did not kill and eat the lamb, their first-born child died.

Joshua 5:2-7 - God punished Israel because the people had not circumcised their children. This was based on the parent's faith. The parents play a critical role in their child's salvation.

[Guest Aluigi]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Nov 26 2004, 03:08 AM'] Collette...Mary was concieved by a man and woman right?

what curse is every person born into?

why would God send Yeshua if people could be perfect anyhow? [/quote]
people couldn't just be perfect anyhow. God, transendent of time and space, infused Christ's righteousness into her at the moment of her conception preserving her from original sin.

why did He do this? The Early Church Fathers knew. He wanted this event to wrap up everything in salvation history. So that as Adam and Eve were sinless and sinned, Jesus and Mary would be sinless and never sin. So that as Eve came out of Adam, Mary's sinlessness came out of Jesus' sinlessness (through a mystical action of God who is not bound by the constraints of time as we are). So that when a non-fallen Angel, St. Gabriel, visited Mary she would agree to God's will whereas a fallen Angel, in the form of the serpent, visited Eve and she agreed to disobey God's will.

Edited November 26, 2004 by Aluigi

[Catalyst]

Collette...Mary was concieved by a man and woman right?

we'll talk about baptism later.

first, lets stay on topic.

what curse is every person born into?

why would God send Yeshua if people could be perfect anyhow?

why would God manifest Himself as Yeshua if there already was a perfect person?

Why did Mary die if she wasn't under sin?

[Guest Aluigi]

i just edited my last post, it's the last post on the first page if you want to see what I said. edit: here's what I said

[quote]people couldn't just be perfect anyhow. God, transendent of time and space, infused Christ's righteousness into her at the moment of her conception preserving her from original sin.

why did He do this? The Early Church Fathers knew. He wanted this event to wrap up everything in salvation history. So that as Adam and Eve were sinless and sinned, Jesus and Mary would be sinless and never sin. So that as Eve came out of Adam, Mary's sinlessness came out of Jesus' sinlessness (through a mystical action of God who is not bound by the constraints of time as we are). So that when a non-fallen Angel, St. Gabriel, visited Mary she would agree to God's will whereas a fallen Angel, in the form of the serpent, visited Eve and she agreed to disobey God's will.
[/quote]
the physical effects of original sin had to be undergone by both the New Adam and who we, in following the tradition of the earliest Christians, interpret to be the New Eve. They underwent this sinless reversing what Adam and Eve had gone through sinful. It was Jesus that defeated death, but Mary undergoing death was the additional event God put in there to make it perfectly reverse the event of original sin.

Edited November 26, 2004 by Aluigi

[StColette]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Nov 26 2004, 03:08 AM'] Collette...Mary was concieved by a man and woman right?
[/quote]
yep that's correct

[quote]what curse is every person born into?[/quote]

People are born with original sin because of Adam and Eve, but to deny that it isn't possible for God to keep that original sin from being upon someone at their conception is to deny that anything and all is possible with God.

[quote]why would God send Yeshua if people could be perfect anyhow?[/quote]

Who says God can't make someone perfect if He wants to ? By all means He can Now why would He create someone who was perfect other than Christ ? Well, what better of a person to intrust with His Son, then someone who was most pure and sinless. Now Mary is by no means equal to Christ, yes they are both sinless, but Mary isn't God in human form, like Christ is Christ is the Son of God, second part of the Trinity, only He had the power die for us.

Edited November 26, 2004 by StColette

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Nov 26 2004, 04:10 AM'] why would God send Yeshua if people could be perfect anyhow?

why would God manifest Himself as Yeshua if there already was a perfect person? [/quote]
Let's keep in mind that she wasn't conceived immaculately out of nowhere...her Immaculate Conception came because of the merits of Christ.

[Guest Aluigi]

The similarities wherein Mary reverses Eve's actions and Jesus reverses Adam's are very numerous, but this is not what I base my argument on; simply supplement it.

Kecharitomene, one who has always been in God's favor (and thereby favorable to God in action at every moment of life) is the larger basis for my argument here. First off, it proves that there could never have been a moment in which she was unfavorable to God, therefore could not have sinned. It only indirectly insinuates that she was free of original sin, because all born in original sin have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God (Mary too falls short of God's Glory as she is mere creation)

Additionally, Mary's sinlessness comes from Christ's merits, infused in her at the very moment of her creation.

Edited November 26, 2004 by Aluigi