Is this you?

[Catalyst]

I could write a huge essay but I did want to and I agree with this

What does Romanism say?

In November of 1544, in the northern Italian community of Trent, the Roman Catholic Church convened its 19th ecumenical council. The Council of Trent officially lasted from December of 1545 through December of 1563. During that time the Church intensified its ongoing affront on Protestantism by codifying Catholic dogma in unprecedented fashion, in matters ranging from the strategic place of the sacraments to the doctrines of transubstantiation, purgatory, indulgences, the veneration of the Virgin Mary and the saints, and the efficacy of relics. Tradition was declared coequal to Scripture as a basis for authority.

Perhaps most significant was the Roman Catholic Church's claim that salvation and justification were the result of works as well as faith.

Canon 9 of the Council of Trent states categorically,

"If any one saith that by faith alone the impious is justified; in such wise as to mean, that nothing else is required to cooperate in order to the obtaining [of] the grace of Justification, and that it is not in any way necessary, that he be prepared and disposed by the movement of his own will; let him be anathema."
Canon 14 states:

"If any one saith, that man is truly absolved from his sins and justified, because that he assuredly believed himself absolved and justified; or, that no one is truly justified but he who believes himself justified; and that, by this faith alone, absolution and justification are effected; let him be anathema."
What does the Bible say?

"Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in [God's] sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin."
--Romans 3:20

"Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law."
--Romans 3:28

"He saved us, not on the basis of deeds which we have done in righteousness, but according to His mercy, by the washing of regeneration and renewing by the Holy Spirit."
--Titus 3:5

But the Council of Trent met a long time ago. Hasn't Rome since modified its position?

"Has Rome's position changed? In fact it has not. The Vatican II documents as well as the new Catechism of the Catholic Church reinvoke the theological position of the Council of Trent, condemning the gospel of justification by an imputed righteousness" (Michael Horton, Founder & President of Christians United for Reformation, 1995).

What about James 2:24?

D. James Kennedy, in "Irreconcilable Differences", a roundtable discussion and television broadcast on Catholicism (Ft. Lauderdale FL, 1995):

"...James [2:24 'You see that a man is justified by works, and not by faith alone.'] is dealing with people who profess to be Christians, and yet they don't evidence the reality of their faith by their works [deeds]. Over, and over again... people will say they have faith and they don't have works, and James is saying that real faith always produces works as a result... The question is, 'A man may say that he has faith, but will that faith justify him?' If it is just a 'said' faith" -- no, it won't!"

What did Martin Luther say?

Luther called justification by faith alone (sola fide) "the article upon which the Church stands or falls."

Are There Other Problems?

Try reconciling I Timothy 2:5 -- "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" -- with the longstanding Catholic tradition of praying to Mary, illustrated by the following Prayer to the Blessed Virgin ("Never Known to Fail"), typical of those published in many local newspapers:

"Oh, most beautiful flower of Mt. Carmel, Fruitful vine, Splendor of Heaven. Blessed Mother of the Son of God, Immaculate Virgin, assist me in this necessity. Oh Star of the Sea, Help me and show me herein you are my Mother. Oh, Holy Mary, Mother of God, Queen of Heaven and Earth, I humbly beseech thee from the bottom of my heart to succor me in this necessity. There are none that can withstand your power. Oh show here you are my Mother. Oh, Mary conceived without sin, pray for us who have recourse to thee (3 times). Thank you for your mercy to me and mine. Amen. This prayer must be said for 3 days. The request will be granted. This prayer must be published."

[Catalyst]

and this...


Salvation through Faith by Grace Alone

Rediscovery of the biblical doctrine of justification by faith alone, more than any other truth, ignited the Protestant Reformation. On what grounds is a sinner accepted in the presence of a holy God? Acceptance is based on the "righteousness of God in Jesus Christ" (see Romans 3:19-24 below). It is a righteousness wholly outside the sinner, accomplished by Christ, and imputed to him through the one God-given means -- faith in the Savior, acceptance of His gift of eternal life.


The Bible says:

Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, so that every mouth may be silenced and the whole world held accountable to God. Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin. But now a righteousness from God, apart from law, has been made known, to which the Law and the Prophets testify. This righteousness from God comes through faith in Jesus Christ to all who believe. There is no difference, for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified freely by his grace through the redemption that came by Christ Jesus.
-Romans 3:19-24 (NIV, emphasis added)
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith -- and this not from yourselves, it is the gift of God -- not by works, so that no one can boast.
-Ephesians 2:8-9 (NIV, emphasis added)

(also see Romans 5:1, 11:6; Galatians 3:6; Ephesians 2:5, 3:7; Philippians 3:9; Titus 2:11, 3:7; I Timothy 1:14)


Catholicism says:

Man is justified by baptism plus faith, plus additional works (see Catholic Catechism Ref. Nos. 1265-1271, 1987-1995). The Holy Spirit's transforming work in the sinner becomes the grounds, along with faith, for justification. Most good Catholics are therefore very concerned with "being good enough," "meriting," and "earning" their salvation.
The Catholic Catechism says of baptism, for example: "Baptism not only purifies from all sins, but also makes the neophyte 'a new creature,' an adopted son of God, who has become a 'partaker of the divine nature,' member of Christ and co-heir with him, and a temple of the Holy Spirit" (Catechism 1265, emphasis added). "... Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians" (Catechism 1271).


do you believe this?

Mary, Jesus' Mother


Protestants have historically held Mary in high regard as a godly and highly favored woman of God, a sinner saved by the grace of her divine Son.

Catholic dogma, on the other hand, has exalted her in an irresponsible and idolatrous way. She is declared to have been free from all original sin (the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, first declared in 1854; Catechism 491-492), free from any actual sin during her life (Catechism 411), and perpetually a virgin even after the birth of Jesus (Catechism 499-500).


Mary... was redeemed from the moment of her conception... preserved immune from all stain of original sin.
-Catechism 491
Mary remained free of every personal sin her whole life long.
-Catechism 493

or this??

Purgatory

The Roman Catholic Church does not teach its people to have confidence in the full forgiveness of their sins through the death of Christ alone. Nor are they taught that the righteousness of God accomplished by Jesus Christ is their permanent possession. The result is that the faithful Catholic is taught never to come to full assurance of salvation during their earthly life, for they are still capable of committing "mortal sin." A Catholic's redemption is always dependent on their maintaining a faithfulness to the Church's doctrine and practice.

Thus Catholics are taught that when they die, if they have not committed mortal sins (and with the exception of the special class of believers they call "saints"), all go to the place the church calls purgatory. The Catechism states, "All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven..."

"The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent" (Catechism 1030-1031). This concept of purgatory led to the unbiblical Catholic doctrine of prayers for the dead (Catechism 1032). Catholic believers are taught that "it is a holy and a wholesome thought to pray for the dead that they may be loosed from their sins" (Catechism 958).

[Guest Aluigi]

James 2:24 says more than that, it says that faith without works is dead. therefore, works keep faith alive. a person without works is a person without faith, thus a person who is not saved. Martin Luther promoted sinning as much as you want so long as you have "faith". Trent recognizes that saying "faith without works" is the same as saying "dead faith" "no faith." faith without deeds of the law (wow surpised you're using a translation so Catholic-friendly as to admit that phrase) is okay, faith without good works does not exist. deeds of the law was a common phrase, as proven by evidence in the Dead Sea Scrolls, talking about stuff like Circumcision and dietary customs. Catholic good works are stuff like the Corporal Works of Mercy and the Spiritual Works of Mercy, prayer, fasting, so long as it is inspired by faith and love of God.

let me ask you this, does faith exist without good works? if not, then how can someone be saved without works?

[daugher-of-Mary]

Hey catalyst!

Welcome to PM. It's 2 am here, so I'm going to limit myself to your last Scripture citation...

[quote]
Try reconciling I Timothy 2:5 -- "For there is one God, and one mediator also between God and men, the man Christ Jesus" -- with the longstanding Catholic tradition of praying to Mary, illustrated by the following Prayer to the Blessed Virgin ("Never Known to Fail"), typical of those published in many local newspapers:
[/quote]

1. Throughout the NT, asking the prayers of other Christians is encouraged. (1 Timothy 2:1–4, Rom. 15:30–32, Eph. 6:18–20, Col. 4:3, 1 Thess. 5:25, 2 Thess. 3:1, 2 Thess. 1:11). If asking the prayers of our brothers and sisters on earth in no way negates the mediatorship of Christ, why should asking the prayers of our brothers and sisters in Eternity (who are before the Throne of God!) in anyway negate the mediatorship of Christ?

2. Scripture tells us that the Saints in Heaven offer prayers for the saints on earth. "[An] angel came and stood at the altar [in heaven] with a golden censer; and he was given much incense to mingle with the prayers of all the saints upon the golden altar before the throne; and the smoke of the incense rose with the prayers of the saints from the hand of the angel before God" (Rev. 8:3-4).

there is more, but I'm too tired to put thoughts together! later! God bless and prayers!

[Guest Aluigi]

we are saved by grace through faith. faith does not exist without good works.

we must be born of water (certainly cannot be translated as fluid from the mother, otherwise John the Baptist and eventually the Apostles wouldn't have been said to be baptizing with water, it refers to more than that)and the spirit for salvation according to St. John's version of the Holy Gospel.

works of the law- dietary customs, circumcision, jewish RITUALS.
good works- 7 corperal and 7 spiritual works of mercy, prayers, fasting, virtuous actions, reception of God's grace faithfully through the 7 sacraments.

what you fail to recognize is that when God declares something, it becomes ontologically true. meaning when God says I am righteous, my nature becomes righteous. God declares this at Baptism and comes to reside in the full Trinity in the baptized soul allowing the ontollogical change to develop throughout the time of the baptized life.

it is an infusion of Christ's righteousness. He doesn't just ignore our faults and say we're righteous based on Jesus, rather based on Jesus He erases our faults and remakes us to be perfect humans. Jesus said "BE PERFECT, as your Heavenly Father is perfect". That is a command from God, take it seriously. God will make us perfectly by His grace working through our faith. Our works keep our faith alive. Faith is like a free gift from God, but it's like He gave us a gift of a puppy. if you don't feed it, it will die and then you'll no longer have the free gift. that doesn't mean your paying for it, it's still a free gift. you just have to maintain it.

Edited November 26, 2004 by Aluigi

[Guest Aluigi]

the Angel's adress to Mary is Kecharitomene, meaning "always having been full of grace/favor". When someone is in original sin, they are not in God's favor. Therefore, for Mary to have always been in God's favor, she never could have been in sin. Likewise, when someone is in any sin, they are out of God's favor. Therefore, if Mary had ever committed sin, she would not be in God's favor. When someone is forgiven of their sin, they are in God's favor, but they cannot be in God's favor WHILE they are sinning (God cannot stand to be in the presence of sin remember). Kecharitomene says Mary was FILLED with God's Favor for her ENTIRE LIFE. She never sinned.

[daugher-of-Mary]

[quote]Protestants have historically held Mary in high regard as a godly and highly favored woman of God, a sinner saved by the grace of her divine Son.

Catholic dogma, on the other hand, has exalted her in an irresponsible and idolatrous way. She is declared to have been free from all original sin (the dogma of the Immaculate Conception, first declared in 1854; Catechism 491-492), free from any actual sin during her life (Catechism 411), and perpetually a virgin even after the birth of Jesus (Catechism 499-500).[/quote]

Why is it idolatrous to believe that God, in His infinite Wisdom and Mercy, would preserve the soul of His Mother from the stain of original sin? Again, more later...

[Catalyst]

How can you say no one can be in Gods favour if they are born in sin. Ever heard of Elijah, David, Samson, Enoch???

Mary never sinned? was born out of a womb? was she concieved by her mother with another man? She was born into sin lik eme and you. What separates Jesus from all of us is He was concieved by spirit....

[Guest Aluigi]

at the moment of sinning, someone is not in God's favor. if I am in the process of robbing a bank, at that moment I am not in God's favor. IF it were true that at that moment i were in God's favor, that would mean God was in support of that sin, because He would have to have been finding my actions favorable. If Mary was in God's favor for her entire life, every second of her life as the tense of the greek verb indicates, she never could have been in sin.

Edited November 26, 2004 by Aluigi

[Catalyst]

You can do all these works but lack faith. With faith comes works and you won't even realise it.

Mary was born into sin therefore heir to the original sin. You think she taight Jesus all He knew? They marveled at His knowledge as well as the priests. A certian verse springs to mind about a 12 year old Jesus staying behind to talk to preists in eygpt.

[Catalyst]

You don't have to sin to sin...your born into it.

Actually, let me revise that...you sin before you can even act thanks to Adam and eve as your born into it. If we weren't we'd have that tight physical, tangible walk Adam and Eve had before their sin. Sin is handed down from generation to generation. Today still, the root of everything is spiritual before its even genes, such as scientifical explanations for hereditary alcoholism, or breast cancer. The root of everything is spiritual.

Edited November 26, 2004 by Catalyst

[Catalyst]

even when David was sinning God still loved Him and found favour in Him. If He didn't He wouldn't have forgiven Him. You can sin with just a half second thought and still have favour with God because thats what His grace is all about. The willingness to be in your life.

[Guest Aluigi]

nowhere did anyone claim Mary taught Jesus all He knew. she marveled and held all things in her heart. because you had no answer for my argument, you shifted as if I was claiming Jesus was taught all He knew by Mary. Of course He wasn't, He is the Omnipotent God. However, Mary was in God's favor all her life, kecharitomene, every second of her life. If she was ever in sin, at that moment she would not have been in God's favor. now why is this? it makes perfect sense, and the Early Church Fathers recognized WHY the Angel Gabriel called Mary always in God's Favor.

Because Eve had been in God's Favor her entire life until she sinned too. There were two first parents, and God decided to use two more sinless people to undo it by acts of obedience. Christ's death was the complete fulfillment of the reversal of original sin, even if Mary hadn't been there, but God wanted to make it fulfill even more to show us the tie-in. THerefore, a sinless woman and a sinless man obeyed God their entire lives. It is Adam and Eve prefigurement.

[Guest Aluigi]

while your sinning God does not find you favorable. that would be Him condoning your action. He certainly loves you, but he is grieved by your action.

did God's favor rest upon David at the moment he was committing adultery? no, because that favor would indicate approval of the current action.

Edited November 26, 2004 by Aluigi

[Catalyst]

I agree with you there.

but was mary born unto two earthly parents?

No i didn't switch topics..were on the same one! I'm getting an idea of youyr own personal beliefs

Edited November 26, 2004 by Catalyst