Bible Puzzle

[Katholikos]

Here's an enigma. Please help me solve it.

Only the ORIGINAL biblical writings, in the autographs (handwriting) of the sacred authors, are "inspired," i.e., God-breathed. Copies, translations, and printings are not protected against error; they are not inspired.

The originals of the biblical texts do not exist. They were written on fragile papyrus and did not survive. They were either destroyed in the fierce Roman persecutions of the first three centuries when it was a capital crime to possess any of them, or they succumbed to the vagaries of antiquity. Two of Paul's letters that we know of did not survive, not even as copies.

Only copies of copies of copies of copies exist. No one knows how many copies intervened between the originals and the oldest surviving, nearly complete copies of biblical manuscripts that exist in the original language -- Koine Greek. The very oldest manuscripts date from the fourth and and fifth century. There are only three, and one of them wasn't found until 1844. There are also three ancient versions (translations into Old Latin, Syriac, and Coptic) from the second and third centuries, which help scholars restore the Greek text. And there are many fragments -- but they are also copies. There are more than five thousand documents in all -- all of them copies!

What's so puzzling? Think about that. Catholics made each and every copy of the sacred text by hand, and the Catholic Church was the sole possessor of them and all subsequent copies for more than a thousand years. Then the Catholic Church was co-possessor of the Sacred Scriptures with the Orthodox for another 500 years.

Then the printing press was invented, and in 1456 the first book off the press was the Gutenberg Bible, the Vulgate. (Gutenberg was a Catholic.)

Martin Luther followed, and in 1517 he declared his doctrine of Sola Scriptura (the Bible Alone is the sole guide to faith and morals).

The puzzle is: Why would any Protestant base his faith on the Bible, since every single copy of the Bible in existence today traces its origin back to the Catholic Church? And there are no originals to check the copies for accuracy? And the Church could have changed the Bible, discarded some books (as Luther did), and manipulated the Bible to suit herself, had she wanted to?

But she didn't need to. She wrote the New Testament. She is the author of the NT and the guardian, protector, and Mother of the entire Bible -- she gave birth to it!

Every copy of the Bible was laboriously made by Catholics until the invention of the printing press -- fifteen centuries of painstaking work by candlelight. Copying the Bible by hand was slow, tedious, difficult. Monks spent their lives at the writing table. The next time you read your Bible, remember where you got it.

And, Protestant friends, ask yourself why you believe it, since it came from the Catholic Church.

No, you say, it came from the Holy Spirit? Does the Holy Spirit have hands? The Catholic Church was the agent of God in the production of the Bible. The Holy Spirit that guided the Church in the writing and canonization of the NT, and the canonization of the OT, which she inherited from Jesus and the Apostles, still guides the Church. Jesus said the Advocate would be with the Church ALWAYS (Jn 14:16 et al.).

I know why I trust the Bible, but why do you?

Katholikos

St. Jerome, pray for us.

St. Damien, pray for us.

Edited October 10, 2003 by Katholikos

[Anna]

I love It.

The Church, the Holy Bible, the Truth!

Pax Christi. <><

[Trooper4DaHolyG]

Here's an enigma.  Please help me solve it.

Only the ORIGINAL biblical writings, in the autographs (handwriting) of the sacred authors, are "inspired," i.e., God-breathed.  Copies, translations, and printings are not protected against error; they are not inspired. 

The originals of the biblical texts do not exist.  They were written on fragile papyrus and did not survive.  They were either destroyed in the fierce Roman persecutions of the first three centuries when it was a capital crime to possess any of them, or they succumbed to the vagaries of antiquity.  Two of Paul's letters that we know of did not survive, not even as copies.

Only copies of copies of copies of copies exist.  No one knows how many copies intervened between the originals and the oldest surviving, nearly complete copies of biblical manuscripts that exist in the original language -- Koine Greek.  The very oldest manuscripts date from the fourth and and fifth century. There are only three, and one of them wasn't found until 1844.  There are also three ancient versions (translations into Old Latin, Syriac, and Coptic) from the second and third centuries, which help scholars restore the Greek text.  And there are many fragments -- but they are also copies.  There are more than five thousand documents in all -- all of them copies! 

What's so puzzling?  Think about that.  Catholics made each and every copy of the sacred text by hand, and the Catholic Church was the sole possessor of them and all subsequent copies for more than a thousand years.  Then the Catholic Church was co-possessor of the Sacred Scriptures with the Orthodox for another 500 years. 

Then the printing press was invented, and in 1456 the first book off the press was the Gutenberg Bible, the Vulgate.  (Gutenberg was a Catholic.)

Martin Luther followed, and in 1517 he declared his doctrine of Sola Scriptura (the Bible Alone is the sole guide to faith and morals). 

The puzzle is:  Why would any Protestant base his faith on the Bible, since every single copy of the Bible in existence today traces its origin back to the Catholic Church?  And there are no originals to check the copies for accuracy?  And the Church could have changed the Bible, discarded some books (as Luther did), and manipulated the Bible to suit herself, had she wanted to? 

But she didn't need to.  She wrote the New Testament.  She is the author of the NT and the guardian, protector, and Mother of the entire Bible -- she gave birth to it! 

Every copy of the Bible was laboriously made by Catholics until the invention of the printing press -- fifteen centuries of painstaking work by candlelight.  Copying the Bible by hand was slow, tedious, difficult.  Monks spent their lives at the writing table.  The next time you read your Bible, remember where you got it.

And, Protestant friends, ask yourself why you believe it, since it came from the Catholic Church.

No, you say, it came from the Holy Spirit?  Does the Holy Spirit have hands? The Catholic Church was the agent  of God in the production of the Bible.  The Holy Spirit that guided the Church in the writing and canonization of the NT, and the canonization of the OT, which she inherited from Jesus and the Apostles, still guides the Church.  Jesus said the Advocate would be with the Church ALWAYS  (Jn 14:16 et al.).

I know why I trust the Bible, but why do you? 

Katholikos 

St. Jerome, pray for us.

St. Damien, pray for us.

you base yourself on people

I base myself on God.

what I say will only contradict you, because your faith is in a different vessel as simple as that...

claiming authority because of the history of your people....

DISGUSTING!

[siebersusi]

Why do you ask so many questions if you are noy looking for answers??? <_<

[foundsheep]

you base yourself on people

I base myself on God.

what I say will only contradict you, because your faith is in a different vessel as simple as that...

claiming authority because of the history of your people....

DISGUSTING!

Why dont you tell us where the bible came from Trooper? We all know it was God inspired Right? Try a little harder instead of dancing around it when you cant answer it. The bible is man-made but God inspired.

[JP2Iloveyou]

you base yourself on people

I base myself on God.

what I say will only contradict you, because your faith is in a different vessel as simple as that...

claiming authority because of the history of your people....

DISGUSTING!

That argument would not win many philosophy debates. The first rule of debating is that you must engage the argument. I'm using your quote as an example, but anyone who reads this should apply it to themselves. Arguing from emotion and feeling will convince no one because none of us have the same feelings and emotions. You must argue from fact. It is OK to have your own opinion and to articulate that opinion, but without facts backing it up, it is meaningless.

[ironmonk]

you base yourself on people

I base myself on God.

what I say will only contradict you, because your faith is in a different vessel as simple as that...

claiming authority because of the history of your people....

DISGUSTING!

you base yourself on people

No we don't. We base ourselves on the Teachings of Christ.

I base myself on God.

How do you know that if you go by scripture? Since it was the Catholic Church that protected it... Even Luther stated that everyone owes the Catholic Church for the bible because without the Catholic Church they would not even know of the bible.

what I say will only contradict you, because your faith is in a different vessel as simple as that...

Where are your facts of the bible? Where the bible came from has NOTHING to do with faith... it's based in fact. Someone had to protect the books, and copy them. Who did?

claiming authority because of the history of your people....

DISGUSTING!

We do not claim authority. The Church is the Authority because Christ gave the authority. Argueing for the sake of argueing without being able to back up your argument is FOOLISH.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[Katholikos]

Why do you ask so many questions if you are noy looking for answers???

Protestants are caught on the horns of a dilemma.

They claim the Bible is the Word of God, though their only evidence of that is the witness of the Catholic Church. They also believe "by faith" that it (the abbreviated version containing only 66 books) is the sole rule for faith and morals.

But as I stated in my post, it was produced and all copies of it for a thousand years were made by the Catholic Church. And there are no originals. So I'm asking, why would a Protestant believe the Bible, when they believe the Church that wrote the NT and formed the Bible is evil, deceitful, morally corrupt, the W of B as Luther called it and many echo him, and at the very least, doctrinally incorrect and unbiblical?

It is illogical and incomprehansible to me that the Bible produced by the Catholic Church has any merit to a Protestant. I'm just asking Protestants to explain their reasoning.

I would like to know why they accept the Bible at all, given its history? It's a serious question.

Speaking from my own experience as a Protestant, most have not a clue as to where and how we got the Bible. So I have briefly informed them. Now, they can answer the question (if they will).

And if they won't, their silence will speak volumes.

Peace be to all,

Ave Cor Mariae, Katholikos

[Dave]

you base yourself on people

I base myself on God.

what I say will only contradict you, because your faith is in a different vessel as simple as that...

claiming authority because of the history of your people....

DISGUSTING!

More being unable to refute what we say and thus resorting to personal attacks. Take a mature pill, Trooper!

[cmotherofpirl]

you base yourself on people

I base myself on God.

what I say will only contradict you, because your faith is in a different vessel as simple as that...

claiming authority because of the history of your people....

DISGUSTING!

lol trooper

the BIBLE is GOD working thru people.

the BIBLE is the history of that people.

So if you deny that 5000 years of the teachings of the people,

you are denying everything in the BIBLE.

If you deny the Catholic Church you deny the source of that BIBLE.

TRUTH hurts,

[Anna]

Trooper,

You've really never given any of us here any reason to think that your church has the fullness of Truth, which I guess is basically what we're trying to show: which Church did Christ establish and endow with the fullness of His Truth?

All you ever say is stuff like, it's a party, and it rox.

Well, sorry, but that is totally unbiblical. Jesus didn't say, "come follow me, it'll be one big parTEE!"

His words, (if you can trust the Catholic Church for preserving them for the past 2000 years) were "If you love me, pick up your cross every day, and come, follow Me."

You say that we base our faith on men. No, our Faith is in Jesus Christ, and our Church was founded by Him.

You say that you base your faith on God. Really? It seems by your posts that you really have just settled where it's the most fun.

Fun is really no indicator of Truth.

Human feelings are no indicator of Truth.

Truth is proven, by study, research, logic, history, and science. All of these things, God has given to humans. He gave us a brain to use it, to find Truth.

He gave us feelings to be able to love each other, show charity toward others, and experience justifiable anger at sin and wrondoing and injustice.

So, back to Likos' question:

If the Bible is traced back to the Catholic Church as Its roots, how can you trust it to be True? And how can you then reject the Church as "not True?"

Pax Christi. <><

[Trooper4DaHolyG]

Trooper,

You've really never given any of us here any reason to think that your church has the fullness of Truth, which I guess is basically what we're trying to show:  which Church did Christ establish and endow with the fullness of His Truth?

All you ever say is stuff like, it's a party, and it rox.

Well, sorry, but that is totally unbiblical.  Jesus didn't say, "come follow me, it'll be one big parTEE!"

His words, (if you can trust the Catholic Church for preserving them for the past 2000 years) were "If you love me, pick up your cross every day, and come, follow Me."

You say that we base our faith on men.  No, our Faith is in Jesus Christ, and our Church was founded by Him.

You say that you base your faith on God.  Really?  It seems by your posts that you really have just settled where it's the most fun.

Fun is really no indicator of Truth.

Human feelings are no indicator of Truth.

Truth is proven, by study, research, logic, history, and science.  All of these things, God has given to humans.  He gave us a brain to use it, to find Truth.

He gave us feelings to be able to love each other, show charity toward others, and experience justifiable anger at sin and wrondoing and injustice.

So, back to Likos' question:

If the Bible is traced back to the Catholic Church as Its roots, how can you trust it to be True?  And how can you then reject the Church as "not True?"

Pax Christi. <><

my churches beliefs in short which reflect the fulness of truth.

We have been told that all God's promise are Yes and Amen

therefore he is blessing our Church.

We believe that the Bible is God's Word. It is accurate, authoritative and applicable to our every day lives.

We believe in one eternal God who is the Creator of all things. He exists in three Persons: God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit. He is totally loving and completely holy.

We believe that sin has separated each of us from God and His purpose for our lives.

We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ as both God and man is the only One who can reconcile us to God. He lived a sinless and exemplary life, died on the cross in our place, and rose again to prove His victory and empower us for life.

We believe that in order to receive forgiveness and the 'new birth' we must repent of our sins, believe in the Lord Jesus Christ, and submit to His will for our lives.

We believe that in order to live the holy and fruitful lives that God intends for us, we need to be baptised in water and be filled with the power of the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit enables us to use spiritual gifts, including speaking in tongues which is the initial evidence of baptism in the Holy Spirit.

We believe that God has individually equipped us so that we can successfully achieve His purpose for our lives which is to worship God, fulfil our role in the Church and serve the community in which we live.

We believe that God wants to heal and transform us so that we can live healthy and prosperous lives in order to help others more effectively.

We believe that our eternal destination of either Heaven or hell is determined by our response to the Lord Jesus Christ.

We believe that the Lord Jesus Christ is coming back again as He promised.

[cmotherofpirl]

Could you explain that please?

[notbilln]

Ok here goes. Trooper, I must admit that the statement of beliefs is good, for a prodestant church. They are affirmative in nature rather than saying what they disagree with other christians about. It makes it more attractive to new prospective members without really mentioning anything that people would disagree about. Have you read ours? Its a bit longer, with in depth details explaining our faith.

You might want to look at it to get an idea of a mature disscusion of christianity. You are essentially saying that your church is correct because you say/ believe it is and therefore is correct. Some people call that circular reasoning. Philosophers don't really like to rely on it too much. Now, not everyone was blessed by our Lord with the skills to debate, thats fine it doesn't make you a bad person. I'm not attacking your beliefs and I'm not trying to put you down. However, If you continue to debate in this manner, you are just going to become more and more deffensive, we are going to get more frustrated and feelings are going to be hurt. I appoligize if bringing this up has caused any. I just thought that if it isn't broached, its just going to get worse. I think the point of this and any debates on this site really have a dual purpose. Perhaps they will change some minds, but they will also help us to better understand each other and our respective faiths. So I guess I'm encouraging you to try harder. The better you argue, the better I will have to.

[Trooper4DaHolyG]

Ok here goes. Trooper, I must admit that the statement of beliefs is good, for a prodestant church. They are affirmative in nature rather than saying what they disagree with other christians about. It makes it more attractive to new prospective members without really mentioning anything that people would disagree about. Have you read ours? Its a bit longer, with in depth details explaining our faith.

You might want to look at it to get an idea of a mature disscusion of christianity. You are essentially saying  that your church is correct because you say/ believe it is and therefore is correct. Some people call that circular reasoning. Philosophers don't really like to rely on it too much. Now, not everyone was blessed by our Lord with the skills to debate, thats fine it doesn't make you a bad person. I'm not attacking your beliefs and I'm not trying to put you down. However, If you continue to debate in this manner, you are just going to become more and more deffensive, we are going to get more frustrated and feelings are going to be hurt. I appoligize if bringing this up has caused any. I just thought that if it isn't broached, its just going to get worse. I think the point of this and any debates on this site really have a dual purpose. Perhaps they will change some minds, but they will also help us to better understand each other and our respective faiths. So I guess I'm encouraging you to try harder. The better you argue, the better I will have to.

hey matey!

hahaha, I know how to debate, and I can. Yet no one here likes too its a debate table, with no debating just debatable topics...

When I first came here I debated, yet all I got was abuse and personal attacks! Then when I told someone their debating skills would have already meant they lost this debate, they said I was side-stepping that I am wrong, not a proper Christian and am based on lies. From then on I proceeded my own way, trying to be as nice as possible. Yet everything I say gets pulled apart and taken the wrong way.

The things that my church belives in speak for themselves, especially to any bible scholars. The things your church believes in is also the same yet their are any tricky parts, that are backed up by all sorts of facts and other writings.