Acts Ch. 15

[Buzzard]

I see this many times coming from Catholic Posters[list][b][color=blue]Why did Paul bother to go and meet with Peter[/color][/b]
re:
the issue of circumcision
[/list]He didn’t, he went to Jerusalem where the church was assembled together
Peter being just one of them
[list][b][color=blue]Why was the issue settled when Peter spoke[/color][/b]?
(Acts ch 15)
[/list]
It wasn’t; let’s go thru it

[quote][list]~{Acts 15:1}~
[i] [font="Times"]And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said,
Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
2   When therefore Paul and Barnabas had no small dissension and disputation with them,
they determined that Paul and Barnabas, and certain other of them,
should go up to Jerusalem unto [b][color=red]the apostles and elders[/color][/b] about this question.[/font][/i]


[/list]
No special mention of Peter,
just [i] [font="Times"] [b][color=red]the apostles and elders[/color][/b] about this question[/font][/i]

[list][i] [font="Times"] And when they were come to Jerusalem, they were received
#1:
of the church,
#2:
and of the apostles and elders,
and they declared all things that God had done with them.
. [/font][/i] 

[/list]
No special mention of Peter there either,
just [i] [font="Times"] [b][color=red]the apostles and elders[/color][/b] about this question[/font][/i]
[list][i] [font="Times"] But there rose up certain of the sect of the Pharisees which believed, saying,
That it was needful to circumcise them, and to command them to keep the law of Moses.
And the apostles and elders came together for to consider of this matter.
And when there had been much disputing, [/font][/i] 
That’s Debate / and Disagreement / amongst the Apostles and ECF’s


[/list]
Now we get to Peter’s Testimony
[list][i] [font="Times"] Peter rose up, and said unto them,
Men and brethren, ye know how that a good while ago God made choice among us,
that the Gentiles by my mouth should hear the word of the gospel, and believe.
And God, which knoweth the hearts, bare them witness,
giving them the Holy Ghost, even as he did unto us;
And put no difference between us and them, purifying their hearts by faith. [/font][/i]
---{[u][b]Peter Asks[/b][/u]}----
[i] [font="Times"][b][color=blue]Now therefore why tempt ye God, to put a yoke upon the neck of the disciples[/color][/b],
which neither our fathers nor we were able to bear?
But we believe that through the grace of the LORD Jesus Christ
we shall be saved, even as they.
  [/font][/i]

[/list]
Peter gave his testimony, and now they want to hear from
[b][color=red] Barnabas[/color][/b] and [b][color=red]Paul[/color][/b]
[list][i] [font="Times"]Blaa-Blaa-Blaa, ect. ect. ect.[/font][/i]

[/list]
Now “[b][color=red]James Speaks[/color][/b]”
[list][i] [font="Times"]James answered, saying,
Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles,
to take out of them a people for his name[/font][/i].
            [b][u][color=green]It is Written[/color][/u][/b]
[i] [font="Times"]And to this [b][color=red]agree the words of the prophets[/color][/b]; as it is written,
After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David, which is fallen down;
and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
That the residue of men might seek after the Lord,
and all the Gentiles, upon whom my name is called,
saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
            [b][color=red]Wherefore my sentence is[/color][/b][/font][/i]

[/list]

Wherefore [b][color=red]my[/color][/b] sentence is,
Not;
Peter’s decision, Peter’s Opinion, Peter Speaks from the Chair,
Peter has spoken; Case closed,
Or any other such thingy

James says
[list][i] [font="Times"] Wherefore [b][color=red]my sentence[/color][/b] is ……..
But that [b][color=green]we write unto them[/color][/b], ……………
Then pleased it the apostles and elders with [b][color=red]the whole church[/color][/b],
[b]#1:[/b]
to send chosen men of their own company to Antioch with Paul and Barnabas; namely,
[b]#2:[/b]
And they [b][color=green]wrote letters[/color][/b] by them after this manner
……………
[b]#3:[/b]
We have sent therefore Judas and Silas, who shall also tell you[b][color=red] the same thing[/color][/b] by mouth.
…………..
[b]#4:[/b]
they delivered the epistle:
Which [b][color=red]when they had read, they rejoiced[/color][/b] for the consolation.
[/font][/i]

[/list]
Lets go back to what started this meeting in the 1st place
[list]All Dem Dar Oral Teachings and Traditions
~{Acts 15:1}~
[i] [font="Times"] And certain men which came down from Judaea taught the brethren, and said,
Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
[/font][/i]
And
[i] [font="Times"]
24. Forasmuch as we have heard,
that certain which [b][color=red]went out from us[/color][/b] have troubled you with words,
subverting your souls, saying,
Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law:
[b][color=red]to whom we gave no such commandment[/color][/b]:
[/font][/i]

[/list]

[b]James Decision was[/b]
[list]that [b][color=green]we write unto them[/color][/b],
and send men with”[b]Tthat Which was Written[/b]” in their hands
to prove what they testified and affirmed was true
they delivered the epistle:
Which [b][color=red]when they had read[/color][/b], they rejoiced for the consolation.


[/list][/quote]
[b][u]Hey[/u][/b] !!!!!!!!!,
it seems the Apostolic Church followed [b][color=green]Luke’s advise[/color][/b][list]~{Luke 1:3}~
[b][color=green]to write unto thee[/color][/b] in order,…..
4 That thou mightest [b][color=red]know the certainty[/color][/b] of those things,
wherein thou hast been instructed.
[/list]
[b][u]Hey[/u][/b] !!!!!!!!!,
These men that came down from Judea,
Some of them were
“[b]Students of the Apostles[/b]”

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?act=ST&f=3&t=24408&st=0#entry427416"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?act=S...t=0#entry427416[/url]

So evidently all that “[i]Verbal Instruction / Oral Traditions[/i]” from those
“[b]Students of the Apostles[/b]”
that came down from Judea with
“[i][b][color=red]Verbal Orders / Teachings[/color][/b] from Headquarters[/i]”
Just ain’t all that reliable after all .
So when they tell you “[i]so and so[/i]” was a
Student of the Apostle [u]???????[/u]:
That don’t mean nottin


Far too many of them were
shall we say [i]"Vain Babblers"[/i]

Edited November 24, 2004 by Buzzard

[foundsheep]

[quote]7  [b]After much debate had taken place[/b], Peter got up and said to them, "My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8
And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us.
9
He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts.
10
Why, then, are you now putting God to the test by placing on the shoulders of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear?
11
[b]On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they[/b]." [/quote]


Now that your through regurgatating someone elses work lets look at the passage again. Now what i took from your post is you trying to take away from Peters Leadership.

Notice the words after much debate has taken place. Once Peter spoke on the subject that was it. They went on as you should.

The subject of verse 7 through 11 is if a person is saved if they have been circumsized or not. Peter lets us know that they are not saved by a circumcision knife but by faith in Christ.

Dont forget to Read Acts 10:44-48 , kinda coincide with verses 8-9 of ch15


The issue was settled. Try Again.

Edited November 24, 2004 by foundsheep

[Buzzard]

[quote name='foundsheep' date='Nov 23 2004, 11:27 PM']

The subject of verse 7 through 11 is if a person is saved if they have been circumsized or not. Peter lets us know that they are not saved by a circumcision knife but by faith in Christ.
[/quote]
in that you are correct
[quote]~{Acts 15:13}~
13   And after they had held their peace,
James answered, saying,
Men and brethren, hearken unto me:
14   Simeon hath declared how God at the first did visit the Gentiles,
to take out of them a people for his name.
15   And to this agree the words of the prophets;
as it is written,

16   After this I will return, and will build again the tabernacle of David,
which is fallen down; and I will build again the ruins thereof, and I will set it up:
17   That the residue of men might seek after the Lord, and all the Gentiles,
upon whom my name is called, saith the Lord, who doeth all these things.
18   Known unto God are all his works from the beginning of the world.
[list]---[b][u][color=green]James Speaking[/color][/u][/b]---

[/list]
19   Wherefore [b][u][color=green]my[/color][/u][/b] sentence is,
that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20   But that we write unto them, that they abstain from pollutions of idols,
and from fornication, and from things strangled, and from blood.
21   For Moses of old time hath in every city them that preach him,
being read in the synagogues every sabbath day.[/quote]




[b][u][color=green]James Speaks[/color][/u][/b]
and Case is Closed

Edited November 24, 2004 by Buzzard

[Guest Aluigi]

duh, James is the Bishop of Jerusalem, they're holding a council in his city. Peter was a humble leader, like all popes are called to be. servants of the servants of God. Peter spoke, everyone listened, they accepted what Peter said, James approved it for the Jerusalem Diocese and ordered it be spread throughout the Christian world. just seems like a hierarchical Church workin at it's finest before the days of television (when EWTN would've been broadcasting all the decisions being made at the council or something )

[Buzzard]

And the
"[i]Politicial Hack Theologial DoubleSpeak Spin[/i]"
goes on and on and on and on

are you saying this decision was
binding only in the Jerusalem Diocese

Jerusalem led by James was the head of the church
This is Scripture, Aluigi;
and binding on the entire church
all peter did was give his testimony
James made the decision

Edited November 24, 2004 by Buzzard

[foundsheep]

James is Talking about the Letters they will send with Paul. The decision about circumcision was already made. You cannot take the word of God and twist. Use the entire chapter. Quit pretending.

[thessalonian]

"are you saying this decision was
binding only in the Jerusalem Diocese"

They all agreed so it was binding on the whole Church. Some Protestants take this James thing to mean that James somehow was the head honcho. They will go to an extreme to keep from facing the truth.

[Buzzard]

[quote name='foundsheep' date='Nov 24 2004, 08:38 AM'] [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=24412&view=findpost&p=427866"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=427866[/url]

James is Talking about the Letters they will send with Paul. The decision about circumcision was already made. You cannot take the word of God and twist. Use the entire chapter. Quit pretending. [/quote]
No, James is not just talking about the letters they will send,
he speaks of the things contained in the letters[list]~{Acts 15:19}~
[b][u]James Speaking[/u][/b]

[font="times"]Wherefore [b][color=red]my sentence is[/color][/b],
that we trouble not them, which from among the Gentiles are turned to God:
20 But that we write unto them,

[color=red]that they abstain from pollutions of idols, and from fornication,
and from things strangled, and from blood.[/color][/font]
[/list]

Edited November 25, 2004 by Buzzard

[amarkich]

Just something interesting on circumcision:

[The Holy Roman Church] firmly believes, professes and teaches that the legal prescriptions of the old Testament or the Mosaic law, which are divided into ceremonies, holy sacrifices and sacraments, because they were instituted to signify something in the future, although they were adequate for the divine cult of that age, once our lord Jesus Christ who was signified by them had come, came to an end and the sacraments of the new Testament had their beginning. Whoever, after the passion, places his hope in the legal prescriptions and submits himself to them as necessary for salvation and as if faith in Christ without them could not save, sins mortally. It does not deny that from Christ's passion until the promulgation of the gospel they could have been retained, provided they were in no way believed to be necessary for salvation. But it asserts that after the promulgation of the gospel they cannot be observed without loss of eternal salvation. Therefore it denounces all who after that time observe circumcision, the sabbath and other legal prescriptions as strangers to the faith of Christ and unable to share in eternal salvation, unless they recoil at some time from these errors. Therefore it strictly orders all who glory in the name of Christian, not to practise circumcision either before or after baptism, since whether or not they place their hope in it, it cannot possibly be observed without loss of eternal salvation.

cf., Council of Florence, Session XI

N.B., interestingly enough, this paragraph is two above that declaring Extra Ecclesiam Nulla Salus, in case you needed help finding it in the actual documents

The actual Council documents can be found at the EWTN library:
[url="http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM"]http://www.ewtn.com/library/COUNCILS/FLORENCE.HTM[/url]