2John 2:18

[Buzzard]

John, when writing his 1st Epistle says this about some of their;
ahhhh “[i][color=blue]Students[/color][/i]”[list]~{1John 2:18}~
[i][font="times"]Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come,
[b][color=red]even now[/color][/b] are there [b][color=red]many antichrists[/color][/b];
……. [b][color=red]They[/color][/b] {anti-christ} [b][color=red]went out from us[/color][/b], but they were not of us;
for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:
but they went out, that they might be [b][color=red]made manifest[/color][/b] that they were not all of us.
………….
26 These things have I [b][color=red]written unto you[/color][/b] concerning them [b][color=red]that seduce you[/color][/b].[/font][/i]


~{Act 15:1}~
[b][u]Dem Dar Oral Teachings[/u][/b]
[i][font="times"]And certain men [b][color=red]which came down from Judaea[/color][/b] taught the brethren, and said,
Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
…….
Forasmuch as we have heard,
that certain [b][color=red]which went out from us[/color][/b] have troubled you with words,
subverting your souls, saying,
Ye must be circumcised, and keep the law: to whom we gave no such commandment: [/font][/i]
[/list]John also writes of some other men;
“Claiming Apostolic Authority”[list]~{Rev.2:2}~
[i][font="times"]
and how thou canst not bear them which are evil:
and thou hast tried them [b][color=red]which say[/color][/b] they are apostles, and are not,
and hast found them [b][color=red]liars[/color][/b]:[/font][/i]
[/list]Even Paul has a few things to say of those
“[i]Claim to be Apostles[/i]”[list]~{2Cor.11:13}~
[i][font="times"]For such are false apostles, deceitful workers,
transforming themselves into the apostles of Christ.
And no marvel; for Satan himself is transformed into an angel of light.
Therefore it is no great thing if[b][color=red] his ministers[/color][/b] also be
transformed as [b][color=red]the ministers of righteousness[/color][/b];
whose end shall be according to their works.[/font][/i]
[/list]John has a few more choice words for these
“[i]Ministers of Satan[/i]”; “[i]deceitful workers[/i]”
that somehow “[b][color=red]seduced the church[/color][/b]” into believing they were
[b][color=red]the ministers of righteousness[/color][/b];[list]~{John 2:9}~
[i][font="times"] and I know[b][color=red] the blasphemy[/color][/b] of them which say they are Jews,
and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
[/font][/i]
[/list][font="times"][i][b][color=red] the blasphemy[/color][/b] of them which say they are Jews,[/i][/font]
we will have to take that up in another thread

So here we have a group of men in the 1st Day Church;
Claiming Apostolic Authority / Succession,
As if they were the Ministers of Righteousness
that went forth deceiving and seducing the church


Many trained by the Apostles themselves,
as in “Students of the Apostles“
which in reality were the Ministers of Satan
and were “[i]the beginning of[/i]” the
coming of the Anti-Christ

so when they tell you "So and So" ECF was a
"Student of the Apostles"
that don't prove anything[list][b][color=red]They[/color][/b] {anti-christ} [b][color=red]went out from us[/color][/b], but they were not of us;
for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us:
but they went out, that they might be [b][color=red]made manifest[/color][/b] that they were not all of us.
[/list]Far too many of them went forth teaching the Doctrines of Anti-Christ

Edited November 24, 2004 by Buzzard

[Guest Aluigi]

there are faithful students of the apostles, those that remained in communion with the Catholic Church centered around St. Peter, who for a while was in Jerusalem helping St. James deal with any dispute about teaching but eventually went to Rome where he knew he'd be more needed. if they're an apostle with obedience to the rock of unity, they are not the Anti-Christ. The Apostles and their sucessors have always remained in visible union, and when one of those taught by the apostles claiming succession broke from authentic Christian doctrine, there was always a clear visible split as is described in these scriptures.

[foundsheep]

[quote]53
Jesus said to them, "Amen, amen, I say to you, unless you eat the flesh of the Son of Man and drink his blood, you do not have life within you.
54
Whoever eats 19 my flesh and drinks my blood has eternal life, and I will raise him on the last day.
55
For my flesh is true food, and my blood is true drink.
56
Whoever eats my flesh and drinks my blood remains in me and I in him.
[/quote]


Do you believe in recieving Jesus Body? Real Prescence?

If not Looks like youll join that group leaving.

[quote]John[color=red]6[/color]:[color=red]66[/color]
As a result of this, many (of) his disciples returned to their former way of life and no longer accompanied him.[/quote]

[foundsheep]

[quote]18
Children, it is the last hour;  and just as you heard that the antichrist was coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. Thus we know this is the last hour.
19
[b]They went out from us, but they were not really of our number[/b];  if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.
20
[b]But you have the anointing that comes from the holy one[/b],  and you all have knowledge. [/quote]


Let me think, For a thousand years there was but one True church, and then there was protestanism. Who left?

[foundsheep]

[quote name='Buzzard' date='Nov 23 2004, 07:18 PM']


~{Act 15:1}~
[b][u]Dem Dar Oral Teachings[/u][/b]
[i][font=times]And certain men [b][color=red]which came down from Judaea[/color][/b] taught the brethren, and said,
Except ye be circumcised after the manner of Moses, ye cannot be saved.
[/quote]
Man this is my favorite one. You tried to use that on another thread. Should I cut apart verses to make the Bible mean what it doesnt. You simply stated a piece of an argument. But who settled it but none other than Kephas. Thats right the rock.


[quote]5
But some from the [color=red]party of the Pharisees [/color]who had become believers stood up and said, "[color=red]It is necessary to circumcise them and direct them to observe the Mosaic law."
6 [/color]3 [color=blue]The apostles and the presbyters met together to see about this matter. [/color]7
4 After much debate had taken place, Peter got up and said to them, "My brothers, you are well aware that from early days God made his choice among you that through my mouth the Gentiles would hear the word of the gospel and believe.
8
And God, who knows the heart, bore witness by granting them the holy Spirit just as he did us.
9
He made no distinction between us and them, for by faith he purified their hearts.
10
Why, then, are you now putting God to the test by placing on the shoulders of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear?
11
[color=blue]On the contrary, we believe that we are saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in the same way as they[/color]." 5
12
[color=blue]The whole assembly fell silent[/color], and they listened while Paul and Barnabas described the signs and wonders God had worked among the Gentiles through them.
[/quote]

[God Conquers]

Sounds like the protestant reformation to me.

[foundsheep]

How bout the "Cut and Paste" Protestant Reformation.

[Buzzard]

[quote name='foundsheep' date='Nov 23 2004, 11:49 PM'] [url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=24408&view=findpost&p=427654"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showt...ndpost&p=427654[/url]

[quote]18
Children, it is the last hour;  and just as you heard that the antichrist was coming, so now many antichrists have appeared. Thus we know this is the last hour.
19
They went out from us, but they were not really of our number;  if they had been, they would have remained with us. Their desertion shows that none of them was of our number.
20
But you have the anointing that comes from the holy one,  and you all have knowledge.[/quote]

Let me think, For a thousand years there was but one True church, and then there was protestanism. Who left? [/quote]
Ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh; foundsheep
I don't know how to tell you this,
but John is writting of those that
[b]left them[/b] in the [b]Days of the Apostles[/b]
like may be 40-50 AD
Not 1400 +/- years later during the Great Rebellion
or as commonly known; [i]'the reformation"[/i]

#2:
These men were with the Church in Judea, not Euorpe

#3:
they were the men that would go forth teaching those Damnable Heresies,
that would seduce the Church just after the Apostles

#4:
They would claim and be accepted as
the "[i]Successors of the Apostles[/i]"
as if they had Apostolic Authority

so we must look too the 1st Day church and the 1st few years afterwards
for these men, not in the Protestant Churches
they came on the sceene about 1500 years too late
.
.

Edited November 24, 2004 by Buzzard

[Guest Aluigi]

they were rejected as people with apostolic authority, they didn't have it.

and how exactly did the people know? oh yeah, the Apostles warned them: only those that remain faithful to our teachings. those that went around teaching things contrary to the Apostolic Hierarchy were seperated.

and FYI, scripture can be applied to any age, and it is applied to the Reformation as well.

[Buzzard]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 24 2004, 01:59 AM']

and FYI, scripture can be applied to any age, and it is applied to the Reformation as well. [/quote]
Yeah; But Jude says this[list]~{Jude 1:3}~
[font="times"]Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation,
it was needful for me to write unto you,
and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith
which was once delivered unto the saints.
4 For there are certain men crept in unawares,
.............................[/font]


[/list]and he wrote that 60+/-AD not during the Protestant Rebellion

John writting 90AD +/- says[list]~{Rev.2:9}~
[font="times"].... and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews,
and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.[/font]


[/list]
[i]"which say they are Jews,[/i]"[list]~{Romans 3:1}~
[b][color=blue]What advantage then hath the Jew[/color][/b]?
or [b][color=blue]what profit is there of circumcision[/color][/b]?
2 Much every way: chiefly,
because that [b][color=red]unto them[/color][/b] were committed [b][color=green]the oracles of God[/color][/b].


[/list]but that is for another thread

but never the less

these things were written as warnings for the church
during and just after the "[b][color=blue]True Apostles[/color][/b]
for as Paul says[list]The Spirirt of Iniquity
[b][color=red]doth already work[/color][/b]


[/list]and he wrote that about 55AD
not in 1555

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 24 2004, 01:59 AM']

and FYI, scripture can be applied to any age, and it is applied to the Reformation as well. [/quote]But you are right about that,
even today we need to know what went wrong and started
the "[i]Great Apostacy[/i]" of the church
.
.[b][u]Mustard Seeds[/u][/b]
[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?act=ST&f=3&t=23635"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?act=ST&f=3&t=23635[/url]

Edited November 24, 2004 by Buzzard

[Guest Aluigi]

there was never a "great apostacy", there were always wolves in sheeps clothing, but a common trait is they all tried to pull people away from the hierarchacal Church. it was applicable back then, it was applicable during the reformation, it's applicable now. there are heretics and heresies that sprout up, and the common thing is that they usually try to draw people away from the Petrine Office and the world body of bishops. it never said that the wolves in sheeps clothing would take over the Church and steer it wrong, rather that it would lead flocks of people out of the Church.

[Buzzard]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 24 2004, 02:39 AM'] there was never a "great apostacy", [/quote]
Well; lets just say in the words of Paul
[list]~{2Thes.2:3}~
[font="times"]Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come,
except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed,
the son of perdition

And for this cause God shall send them strong [b][color=red]delusion[/color][/b],
that they should believe a lie:
12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth,
but had pleasure in unrighteousness.[/font]


[/list]
Paul is echoing the words of Isaiah
[list]~{Isaiah 66:1}~
[font="times"]Thus saith the LORD, The heaven is my throne, and the earth is my footstool:
[b][color=blue]where is the house that ye build unto me[/color][/b]?
[b][color=blue]and where is the place of my rest[/color][/b]?
------
4 I also will choose their [b][color=red]delusions[/color][/b], and will bring their fears upon them;[/font]



[/list]

Now about that
[quote]there were always wolves in sheeps clothing, but a [color=red]common trait[/color] is they all tried to pull people away from the hierarchacal Church. [/quote]
No;
the [color=red]common trait[/color] was they always tried too,
and suceeded many times in
[i]"[b][color=red]Casting the True People Out"[/color][/b][/i][list][font="times"]5 Hear the word of the LORD, ye that tremble at his word;
Your brethren that hated you, [b][color=red]that cast you out[/color][/b] for [b][color=green]my name's sake[/color][/b], said,
Let the LORD be glorified: but he shall appear to your joy,
and they shall be ashamed.[/font]
[/list]John's Example[list]~{3John 1:7}~
[font="times"] Because that for [b][color=green]his name's sake[/color][/b] they went forth,
taking nothing of the Gentiles.
8 We therefore ought to receive such, that we might be fellowhelpers to the truth.
9 I wrote unto the church: but Diotrephes,
who loveth to have [b][color=red]the preeminence[/color][/b] among them, receiveth us not.
10 Wherefore, if I come, I will remember his deeds which he doeth,
#1:
prating against us with malicious words: and not content therewith,
#2:
neither doth he himself receive the brethren, and forbiddeth them that would,
#3:
and [b][color=red]casteth them out of the church[/color][/b].[/font]
---{[b][color=red]that cast you out[/color][/b] for [b][color=green]my name's sake[/color][/b],}---
[/list][b][u]Mustard Seeds[/u][/b]

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?act=ST&f=3&t=23635"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?act=ST&f=3&t=23635[/url]
and the church is full of the
"[i]Fowls of the Air[/i]"

[list]who loveth to have [b][color=red]the preeminence[/color][/b] among them,
[b][u]Dominion Over[/u][/b]
[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=22966"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=22966[/url]
[/list]

Edited November 24, 2004 by Buzzard