How do you know if you are in Christ's Church?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='dairygirl4u2c' date='Nov 27 2004, 04:29 PM']
Again with the either/or mentality when it's not warranted. Just because you can't prove something wrong doesn't mean it's true. I can't prove the boogyman wrong but that doesn't mean it's true.
[/quote]


You do not know what you are talking about. Read the bible a dozens of times then you might have some kind of clue. Study history from REAL sources.

It is warrented.

If you knew what Christ said, you wouldn't make such ridiculous statements. You also have to be able to comprehend logic. You need to work on two things... reading the bible over and over... and studying logic.


[quote]You'll say that if the Catholic Church existed for so long, then a contradiction should arise. First of all, you're not proving the Catholic Church, you're just giving benefit of doubt. All those things that you assert as church.. truth.. one.. is what any church would believe. They just don't all claim to have the church the way you guys do.[/quote]

Wrong.

[quote]To examine this assertion that no contraditions arise a few things should be noted.One I think that no salvation outside the Catholic Church and the newer concept contradict. [/quote]

This shows us three things:
1. that you do not know what the Church means
2. that you do not know Christ's words very well
3. You do not know enough of Christ's teachings to even argue the topic

It's not a contradiction.

[quote]I can find two people who believe what I do throughout history. Is it necessary to have them believe everything that I do?[/quote]

This shows you have not read the life of Christ enough or you can't remember what you read... or it shows you cannot draw the logical "1 + 1 = 2" type of deductions from Christ's and the Apostle's teachings.

[quote]I think what will happen is that iron will insist that what he has is factual proof for the validity of the Catholic Church. But we all know when we're honest that he doesn't necessarily. Then he'll just say well then prove it wrong. Notice he has those two arguments. The fact taht he has the second I think does indicate that his "proofs" are not adequate.[/quote]

You have no clue what you are talking about.

You fail to realize we are not studying ancient history. Thousands of people in dozens of countries under dozens of different goverments kept records since before the time of Christ.

The Jews even say the Catholic Church was first! They are the people who the First Covenant was with, they will know!

Every professional historian claims that the Catholic Church was first.
Luther, Knox, Calvin, etc... ALL claim the Catholic Church was first. MOST protestants that have any kind of education CLAIM the Catholic Church WAS FIRST.


Encyclopedia Britannica states that it was FIRST:

[quote]Roman Catholicism
Christian church characterized by its uniform, highly developed doctrinal and organizational structure that traces its history to the Apostles of Jesus Christ in the 1st century AD. Along with Eastern Orthodoxy and Protestantism, it is one of the three major branches of Christianity.

"Roman Catholicism." Encyclopædia Britannica. 2004.  Encyclopædia Britannica Premium Service.
27 Nov. 2004 [url="http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=9109700"]http://www.britannica.com/eb/article?tocId=9109700[/url].

[/quote]



You should be studying instead of trying to argue about something you know absolutly nothing about.

It would be one thing to ask questions... and ask for references to check... but when you try to a make a point that is totally in left field, you only show people that you do not know what you are talking about.

This will help you in debating here:

1. Go buy a red letter bible. Read at least one chapter every day. Take notes. Group verses which talk about the same topic in your notes. Then compare them from time to time.

2. Please read the New Testament at least seven times while taking notes and comparing them. Before trying to debate anymore. If you've already read the NT seven times... then please read it another seven.

3. Books & websites to read:
[url="http://www.criticalthinking.org/resources/tgs/how-to-study-and-learn.shtml"]http://www.criticalthinking.org/resources/...and-learn.shtml[/url]
[url="http://www.criticalthinking.org/resources/tgs/"]http://www.criticalthinking.org/resources/tgs/[/url]
[url="http://www.austhink.org/critical/"]http://www.austhink.org/critical/[/url]
[url="http://www.ithaca.edu/library/Training/hott.html"]http://www.ithaca.edu/library/Training/hott.html[/url]
[url="http://www.philosophypages.com/lg/"]http://www.philosophypages.com/lg/[/url]

4. Join [url="http://www.Britannica.com"]http://www.Britannica.com[/url] and use it to help your study

5. [url="http://www.USCCB.org"]http://www.USCCB.org[/url] - if you want to argue against it, then at least know what you are arguing against



[quote]I'll show more in a bit. [/quote]


More of nothing is still nothing.

Why not stay off threads I start? I have tried and tried again to be charitable with you, but you can't take the clues. So I'm being blunt.

[b]It is obvious that you have not studied what you are talking about... stop wasting my time. [/b]



I've tried to direct you what to read to know what you're talking about, but to no avail. Debating with you is like debating a wall... you either do not pay attention to what is posted or you can't comprehend it... maybe it's a combination and something else from bizzaro world that I don't know about.

Maybe you were sent to try people's patience. I believe everyone has a gift... I think that's yours. You've tried me... and they're gone.

You actually have to study to learn... sitting around and making up the answers or going by what you skim on the board here is not really study. i.e. (this means "id est", Latin for "that is"... also meaning "in other words") start with reading the Catechism for what the Catholic Church teaches on a subject.

[ironmonk]

Getting back on track....

(everyone, please note the above bluntness is due to almost a year of on and off dialog with dairy)

[b]How do we know if we are in Christ's Church?[/b]
First we must define Church:

[b]What did the first Christians (say before 700 AD) believe "Church" meant?[/b]


Once we find that out... Which I believe to be the Catholic Church, please correct me with Early Church Father's writings if I am wrong.


Some people today say "Church" in the bible is many different things... but in this case, we must ask ourselves:

[b]Which definition of Church could be the one used by Christ and the Apostles in Scripture?[/b]

[b][color=blue]Christ is God, He cannot be wrong, He cannot lie.
Christ said the Church would never be overcome and would be guided in all truth.
Christ said that the Church would be like a city on a mountain which cannot be hidden.
St. Paul states that the Church is the Pillar and Foundation of Truth. [/color][/b]

Therefore we can strike the invisible church because all of the denominations cannot be right because they all contradict each other on one point or another. Truth cannot contradict truth.

Also, it can't mean autonomy of the local church because Christ and the Apostles taught One Faith.... if there are multiple authorities then there is not One Faith.

Christ put Peter in charge of all Christ's Sheep... Which Church claims to have Peter as their first head Bishops... aka Pope.



If I am wrong, please show me with the Early Church Fathers (aka the first Christians). All facts that I have found over the last 25 years lead to the Catholic Church.



God Bless,
ironmonk