Sport Hunting

[ironmonk]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Nov 24 2004, 12:13 PM'] The reason I don't buy the argument is that you have not sufficiently established several key points upon which your argument rests.

First, you have not established that Fox hunting causes the needless death of the fox.

Second, you have not demonstrated that even if it is a needless death, that the man would be directly responsible for it.

Third, even if the man is directly responsible, you have not established that it would be a mortal sin.  You have merely asserted it as true, then asserted the notion that if one does not buy into your interpretation of the passage from the catechism, that one “doesn’t know what it means to be Catholic.

Your arguments here are nothing more than assertions or accusations but are not backed up by evidence or sound reasoning.  You’ll have to do better than that. [/quote]
Come on man, use a little logic....

First off, I wrote if it's needless killing....

Second, maybe you should think of what happens in the fox hunt that the english are so proud of....

The fox is release from the hunting crew.
The dogs trail the fox.
The dogs rip apart the fox.

If the fox had to die, then they could have put it to sleep, not release it, only to hunt it down and kill it with a pack of dogs... causing the fox needless suffering.

They ALREADY had the fox and could have killed it quickly.

You're grasping for straws. Maybe you were ignorant of what happens in the fox hunts... maybe you aren't.

Edited November 24, 2004 by ironmonk

[CatholicCrusader]

I read through this, but I have a question. I would like PSPX and Ironmonk to answer.

Is killing an animal, stuffing it, and putting it on your wall a sin (not eating the meat)? If so what kind?

And is it still a sin if you eat the meat from the animal? Does this chnage the kind of sin?

[ironmonk]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 24 2004, 05:40 PM'] I read through this, but I have a question. I would like PSPX and Ironmonk to answer.

Is killing an animal, stuffing it, and putting it on your wall a sin (not eating the meat)? If so what kind?

And is it still a sin if you eat the meat from the animal? Does this chnage the kind of sin? [/quote]
"needless" killing or suffering is the key. If say deer in an area are growing to large for that area to support them, then some deer need to be destroyed. It would not be a sin. I think it would be a sin to throw away the meat, at least give it away to a butcher - they'll find someone who wants it... Deer meat is awesome.

Say, someone killed a tiger for no reason other than decoration in their home, then I would think that would be a sin... but I could be wrong... I find it hard to come up with "need" for decoration. If the tiger was a man killer, then there is a need to destroy the animal. Then, how did the kill happen... quick by a gun, or by a pack of dogs after it had already been captured?

It all comes down to reason.

If someone is killing for food, it's ok to kill, eat, and stuff the animal, without it being a sin.

I thought I explained that above?


God Bless,
ironmonk

[cmotherofpirl]

You explained it very well.

[CatholicCrusader]

Why is it a sin for the dogs to kill the tiger or other animal? What was to be done before guns? You would have to load the thing up with many arrows or at least once you gte it down, try to stab it to death or behead it, would you not? Is that immoral?

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Nov 24 2004, 04:04 PM']
The fox is release from the hunting crew.
The dogs trail the fox.
The dogs rip apart the fox.

[/quote]
So far the only thing you shown is that the hunting crew frees the fox. The rest is done by dogs who are incapable of committing a sin. In addistion, the dogs do not always kill the fox and when they do, if the hunters are good enough and the dogs well trained enough , the fox is brought back to th hunters who then keep the pelt, which can be usd for any number of things.

Were not talking about throwing two animals in a cage and letting them fight it out. We are talking about animals in the wild, doing what animals do.

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Nov 24 2004, 05:01 PM'] I think it would be a sin to throw away the meat, at least give it away to a butcher - they'll find someone who wants it... Deer meat is awesome.

[/quote]
On this we agree. It would be a sin to throw away the usable meat, but that is because it is being wasteful. And I also agree that deer meat is awsome. I have about 80 lbs of it in my freezer. Makes my mouth water just thinking about it.

[Balthazor]

I really don't know if sport hunting is immoral. Right now where I live there are so many deer that they are causing crop damage, and I am thankful for anyone who will rid me of one.

I hope that they donate the meat to a shelter if they are not going to use it though.
My roommate and I were just having this discussion, he went hunting and came across a carcass someone just shot and left there, the tg ad been cut off. Where he was hunting you need to shoot a doe before you can shoot at anything with antlers, so they just bagged it, tagged it and dumped it. And then Went on to try and get something mountable I suppose.

[BeenaBobba]

In a sense, people are responsible for the actions of their animals. For example, if someone encouraged toughness in his Pit Bull, and the dog later attacked a little girl, the owner would be partially (or even fully) responsible. After all, he trained the dog to be tough and aggressive. Dogs used in fox hunting are obviously well-trained dogs. They do what they're told. The bugel call (or whatever they use) encourages them to chase the fox. My point is that there are less painful ways to kill foxes. Running them down and having one's dogs tear them to pieces isn't necessary. And I don't think the foxes are dogs' natural prey to boot. They chase the fox because dogs generally chase anything that moves fast, and I suspect they're encouraged and trained to kill the fox.

God bless,

Jennifer

[BeenaBobba]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Nov 24 2004, 06:13 PM'] And I also agree that deer meat is awsome. I have about 80 lbs of it in my freezer. Makes my mouth water just thinking about it. [/quote]
I've never had it, but I'd love to try it. What does it taste like?

God bless,

Jen

[ironmonk]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Nov 24 2004, 06:10 PM'] So far the only thing you shown is that the hunting crew frees the fox. The rest is done by dogs who are incapable of committing a sin. In addistion, the dogs do not always kill the fox and when they do, if the hunters are good enough and the dogs well trained enough , the fox is brought back to th hunters who then keep the pelt, which can be usd for any number of things.

Were not talking about throwing two animals in a cage and letting them fight it out. We are talking about animals in the wild, doing what animals do. [/quote]
bro....

I've shown a lot more than that and you know it. Sounds like you are trying to rationalize it. It reminds me of people who try to rationalize a mortal sin by trying to convience themselves that it's venial because they "feel compelled" to do it.

The hunters kill the fox with their dogs.

It's needless killing and suffering toward the fox. If there was a need for the foxes pelt, it would be stupid to let dogs put holes in it with their teeth... You should really think of your rebutals before using them.

Strawmen blow away in the slightest breeze of truth bro.

Do you actually believe what you are posting?

It's your soul... rationalize sin if you must... fox hunting the english way is a sin.... so is bull fighting (shoving swords in the back of the bull as it passing for entertainment... letting it bleed to death)... or killing anything for the sake of killing or decoration... unless you can show me a "need" for decoration.

Rationalizing and looking at the Churches teaching as liberally as you possibly can will lead you down a dark path... it did Luther, Calvin, Knox... etc...

There is nothing more to be said.


God Bless, You're in my prayers,
ironmonk

[ironmonk]

[quote name='Balthazor' date='Nov 24 2004, 06:24 PM'] I really don't know if sport hunting is immoral. Right now where I live there are so many deer that they are causing crop damage, and I am thankful for anyone who will rid me of one. [/quote]
That is a need to control the population, and the meat can feed people.

That's not the sport hunting that we're talking about.


Please see the piece from the Catechism that I posted here.

Needless killing and causing animals to suffer is without doubt a sin.

There are many real reasons to kill animals, for fun is not one of them.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[cmotherofpirl]

[quote name='CatholicCrusader' date='Nov 24 2004, 06:04 PM'] Why is it a sin for the dogs to kill the tiger or other animal? What was to be done before guns? You would have to load the thing up with many arrows or at least once you gte it down, try to stab it to death or behead it, would you not? Is that immoral? [/quote]
It is one thing to kill an animal to eat it [I love deer steak];
it is totally different to kill an animal for fun [ releasing a caged fox for dogs to chase and tear apart].
The first case is for food, the second for entertainment. Such entertainment is cruel and sinful.

[Balthazor]

So does this mean that big game hunters are sinning?

[cmotherofpirl]

It depends on what their intentions are. If they are going out for a man -eating tiger to protect people, they are doing a public service. If they are killing animals to impress their friends with a head on the wall, I think that can be sinful- its a needless killing of an animal.