Mary Was Sinless?

[Trooper4DaHolyG]

I think the major problem here is that alot of the Catholics have a mind set that the Holy Spirit works with them and only attempts to help us. This is NOT TRUE.

Ask Soundy and Me, before coming here and realising the massive hate their really was we respected all Christians for being Christians. Like we would say oh cool they are Christian, we counted Catholics the same not different. You excluded yourself, thank God the Pope is working @ bringing you closer, there has to be some unity here!

[soundguy]

Oo. Also if Mary was sinless then why didn't she just die on the cross to save us from ours sins?

[Joolye]

Probably because she was a woman!

[jasJis]

Oo. Also if Mary was sinless then why didn't she just die on the cross to save us from ours sins?

Because she is just a human creature, like you and me.

You fail to discern the fact that Mary is sinless because of Grace.

You also think that your personal relationship with God is better than mine. I too have a personal relationship with God. Sometimes its just Dios y mi. (God and me). I ALSO have a relationship with God through His Church. People do have God in them (like you) and in a sense, are Arks too. But you and I did not carry the full and complete presence of Jesus within us. It wasn't through you and me that God chose to become human and be carried in our wombs (we ain't got one). We haven't be graced to the same extent as Mary. Why do you think we are all graced the same amount, the same way? We all are offered sufficient salvific grace, but we are given graces to serve others in varied ways. This extreme egalitarianism I thought was American.

[soundguy]

I'm sorry if I sounded like I am all high and mighty,. I have a personal relationship with God. I read and pray my Bible, but not as often as I hope. Its hard to find time these days, I hve to try and make time and then everything else will fall into place. I don't claim to be really 'holy'.

Why do you think we are all graced the same amount, the same way? We all are offered sufficient salvific grace, but we are given graces to serve others in varied ways. This extreme egalitarianism I thought was American.

God Forgives us from all our sins..not just some sins of everybody. He washed our bodies clean -- he died ont he cross so that we can be forgiven. I must admit, some people get used more by God than others, that because they open up more to him and take a step out in faith.

Anyway, I do believe this is getting off the topic.

[ironmonk]

If "all" have sinned...

Did Jesus sin?

You say "He's a different case".

Exactly... So was Mary.

Jesus' flesh came from Mary... Mary had to be pure... She was virgin to sex and to sin.

Why is it so hard to believe that God would keep the mother of His Son pure from Sin?

If "Full of Grace" means to be without sin, and Jesus and Mary are the only ones called that... it's simple.

The Angels of God "Hailed Mary" while she was on Earth, if the lowest in Heaven is greater than the greatest on earth, why would a Holy Angel "Hail Mary", they didn't say "Hail Jesus in Mary"... they said "Hail Mary"... Mary is the greatest just human... she is the greatest Saint.... Are we greater than the Angels of God?

The Fall of man came trough a woman (Eve - Original Sin). The Salvation of Man came through a woman (Mary - Jesus). Jesus is the Salvation which came into the world through Mary.

Please read these articles:

http://www.catholic.com/library/mary_saints.asp

http://www.scripturecatholic.com/blessed_v...irgin_mary.html

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

Edited October 10, 2003 by ironmonk

[jasJis]

Soundguy and Trooper,

This is a better explanation then my poor attempt at understanding "all have sinned". Please read it in a prayerful openess to the Holy Spirit.

...But what about Romans 3:23, "all have sinned"? Have all people committed actual sins? Consider a child below the age of reason. By definition he can’t sin, since sinning requires the ability to reason and the ability to intend to sin. This is indicated by Paul later in the letter to the Romans when he speaks of the time when Jacob and Esau were unborn babies as a time when they "had done nothing either good or bad" (Rom. 9:11).

We also know of another very prominent exception to the rule: Jesus (Heb. 4:15). So if Paul’s statement in Romans 3 includes an exception for the New Adam (Jesus), one may argue that an exception for the New Eve (Mary) can also be made.

Paul’s comment seems to have one of two meanings. It might be that it refers not to absolutely everyone, but just to the mass of mankind (which means young children and other special cases, like Jesus and Mary, would be excluded without having to be singled out). If not that, then it would mean that everyone, without exception, is subject to original sin, which is true for a young child, for the unborn, even for Mary—but she, though due to be subject to it, was preserved by God from it and its stain.

The objection is also raised that if Mary were without sin, she would be equal to God. In the beginning, God created Adam, Eve, and the angels without sin, but none were equal to God. Most of the angels never sinned, and all souls in heaven are without sin. This does not detract from the glory of God, but manifests it by the work he has done in sanctifying his creation. Sinning does not make one human. On the contrary, it is when man is without sin that he is most fully what God intends him to be.

[ICTHUS]

You never actually answered my question. Where does it say that Mary was the ark of the new convenant? Your belief that Mary was sinless all falls back on that, and since you havn't shown my any proof that Mary is the ark of the new convevant then your beliefs all fall down. Unless you can prove it by using the bible.

Ok, well in the OT the Ark of the Old Covenant contained three things, all three of which typify Jesus Christ.

1. Manna from Heaven in a golden jar (Jesus is the bread of life, the archetype of Manna from Heaven, cf. a literalist exegesis of Jn 6:48-68)

2. The staff of Aaron, a symbol of his High Priesthood of the Old Covenant (Christ is the NEW High Priest of the New Covenant, cf. Hebrews)

3. The two stone tablets which contained the Ten Commandments, or the Word of God (Jesus is called "the Word" in the Gospel according to St. John, chapter 1)

Now, since I have established that Jesus is the archetype of all three things that were in the Old Covenant, would it not make sense that the one who brought forth and bore the Bread of Life, the Word of God, and the High Priest of the New Covenant (not just a sybol of Him, but the ACTUAL high priest) would logically be the Ark of the New Covenant?

But there's more.

In Revelation 11, we get this really cool chapter describing all this cool stuff, but something significant happens towards the end.

(my apologies for the funky grammar, I'm taking this from a Greek/English paralell New Testament)

Revelation 11:19

"And was opened the temple of God in Heaven, and was seen the Ark of the Covenant of Him in the Temple of Him and there were flashes of lightning and voices and thunders and an earthquake and great hail.

Now, this was strange. The Ark of the Covenant hadn't been seen for over 400 years!! Why was it suddenly appearing in the Temple? This is a truly momentous event, and a MAJOR turning point. Watch what happens in Chapter 12 (keep in mind that the original manuscript had no chapters and Ch. 11 would have flowed naturally into ch.12 like one big letter)

Revelation 12:1-4 (apologies once again for the funky grammar, Greek doesnt translate very well directly to English)

"And a great sign was seen in Heaven. A woman having been clothed with the sun and the moon underneath the feet of her, and on the head of her a crown with of twelve stars. And in her womb having a child and she cries suffering birth pangs and being in pain to give birth.

Now, it would seem to me that more mention would be given to the Ark if the Ark were so important. The Ark IS important, after all, it was what MADE the Jewish Temple holy! (recall that the shekinah, or glory cloud signifying Gods presence over the tent, was what protected Israel from her foes).

Could it be that the Ark IS described, in Revelation 12? There can be little doubt that the male child mentioned in 12:5 is Jesus Christ, whom as I have proven is the archetypal bread of life, Word of God, and High Priest.

Could it be, therefore, that she that brought Him forth could rightfully be called the Ark of the New Covenant - since Jesus Christ IS the New Covenant???

Im sorry if thats not very eloquent, its 1:22 AM at the moment and thats the best I can do in my current frame of mind.

Anyone else care to elaborate?

I'm off to bed, everybody...good night!!

Ryan

[Dave]

I think the major problem here is that alot of the Catholics have a mind set that the Holy Spirit works with them and only attempts to help us. This is NOT TRUE.

Ask Soundy and Me, before coming here and realising the massive hate their really was we respected all Christians for being Christians. Like we would say oh cool they are  Christian, we counted Catholics the same not different. You excluded yourself, thank God the Pope is working @ bringing you closer, there has to be some unity here!

Trooper, please do us a favor and stop accusing us of hatred and arrogance. We tell you the truth, and you can't refute it, so you say we hate you. Is it hatred or arrogance to tell a child, "2+2=4, not 3"?

Get off your high horse.

[Donna]

Hello.

Genesis chapter 3:

God said:

"Because you [the serpent] have done this, I will put enmities between thee and the woman.... she will crush thy head..."

Comments:

1. "I will put": God put the enmity between the serpent and the woman (Mary most holy).

2. God put it there, not the Popes.

3. Emnity passage denotes an opposite.

4. Serpent = full of sin. Mary = full of grace.

5. "She shall crush..."

"Ipsa:" she shall crush; that is the Latin, that is St. Jerome's translation; that is the official Bible.

When I was a Protestant I did not really ponder that the womb - let alone the person - of the Messiah's Mother had to be spotless. Common sense, Brethren. The new Adam is the thrice holy and could in no way be associated with Adam's sin. The Ark of the Old Covenant was sacred and death came to anyone unlawfully touching it. If the "box" containing tablets of stone was sacred, what about the one who carried the Author of the tablets?

Jesus is the New Covenant: Mary the Ark of that New Covenant.

Blame God. He is the one who did this. Ask Him for the truth.

The precious blood the Protestants say we are washed anew in came from one source of matter: from the flesh and blood of Mary.

[PedroX]

Donna,

You hit the nail on the head. It is so hard for Protestants to begin to understand Mary. This was one of the big hang ups for me in my conversion, until I read a book by Scott Hahn, showing all the scripture that deals with the Blessed Virgin. All I can say is how much my spirituality has deepened because of Mary and my adoration of her.

Donna (and other women) I've always wondered if being a woman brings any special insights to Mary. Like, when you're pregnant, do you identify with her? Maybe I'm just being crazy.

peace...

[cmotherofpirl]

Yes it does.

When we bear a life within us, it is a miracle.

Then we think about how Mary must have felt to carry God.

Met by a Angel, overshadowed in a mysterious way By God himself.

WOW

The sheer wonder of it is unimaginable.

Only something pure could have carried God.

O Lord I am not worthy to recieve You, say only the Word and I shall be healed.

[Donna]

PedroX,

You're not being crazy, that post makes my day!

I agree (uh-oh!) with Cmom.

And since I have several little children close together

I sometimes think I am the luckiest woman in the

world; for I can see (when recollected) the Divine

Infant, the Divine Toddler, the Divine Preschooler,

or imagine Him as such ages in my own children.

PedroX, I don't think God has given us these

children for any other reason, humanly speaking,

than that we would let Him.