Mary Was Sinless?

[Freaky Chik]

Hey yoi,

I read somewhere in this forum that Mary was sinless (according to the Catholic church) ... so i was just wondering...

do you guys believe she was sinless her WHOLE life (while she was growing up).... and how could she be sinless? and where in the bible does it say she was sinless??

thanks :)

[Dave]

Yes, Mary was sinless her whole life -- from the very moment of her conception (hence the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception). We know that from the Gospel of Luke, when the Archangel Gabriel greets her.

The angel Gabriel said, "Hail, full of grace, the Lord is with you" (Luke 1:28). The phrase "full of grace" is a translation of the Greek word kecharitomene. This word represents the proper name of the person being addressed by the angel, and it therefore expresses a characteristic quality of Mary.

The traditional translation, "full of grace," is more accurate than the one found in many recent versions of the New Testament, which give something along the lines of "highly favored daughter." Mary was inDouche a highly favored daughter of God, but the Greek implies more than that (and it never mentions the word for "daughter"). The grace given to Mary is at once permanent and of a unique kind. Kecharitomene is a perfect passive participle of charitoo, meaning "to fill or endow with grace." Since this term is in the perfect tense, it indicates a perfection of grace that is both intensive and extensive. So, the grace Mary enjoyed was not a result of the angel’s visit, and was only as "full" or strong or complete as possible at any given time, but it extended over the whole of her life, from conception onward. She was in a state of sanctifying grace from the first moment of her existence to have been called "full of grace."

[ironmonk]

Only two people in the bible are called to be Full of Grace... Mary and Jesus.

Jesus got all of His flesh from Mary, she had to be pure. She was the ark of the New Covenant...

All of the first Christians taught that Mary was sinless. Even luther taught that Mary was sinless.

Bible Proof:

Exodus 25:11-21 - the ark of the Old Covenant was made of the purest gold for God's Word. Mary is the ark of the New Covenant and is the purest vessel for the Word of God made flesh.

2 Sam. 6:7 - the Ark is so holy and pure that when Uzzah touched it, the Lord slew him. This shows us that the Ark is undefiled. Mary the Ark of the New Covenant is even more immaculate and undefiled, spared by God from original sin so that she could bear His eternal Word in her womb.

1 Chron. 13:9-10 - this is another account of Uzzah and the Ark. For God to dwell within Mary the Ark, Mary had to be conceived without sin. For Protestants to argue otherwise would be to say that God would let the finger of Satan touch His Son made flesh. This is incomprehensible.

1 Chron. 15 and 16 - these verses show the amesome everence the Jews had for the Ark - veneration, vestments, songs, harps, lyres, cymbals, trumpets.

Luke 1:39 / 2 Sam. 6:2 - Luke's conspicuous comparison's between Mary and the Ark described by Samuel underscores the reality of Mary as the undefiled and immaculate Ark of the New Covenant. In these verses, Mary (the Ark) arose and went / David arose and went to the Ark. There is a clear parallel between the Ark of the Old and the Ark of the New Covenant.

Luke 1:41 / 2 Sam. 6:16 - John the Baptist / King David leap for joy before Mary / Ark. So should we leap for joy before Mary the immaculate Ark of the Word made flesh.

Luke 1:43 / 2 Sam. 6:9 - How can the Mother / Ark of the Lord come to me? It is a holy privilege. Our Mother wants to come to us and lead us to Jesus.

Luke 1:56 / 2 Sam. 6:11 and 1 Chron. 13:14 - Mary / the Ark remained in the house for about three months.

Rev 11:19 - at this point in history, the Ark of the Old Covenant was not seen for six centuries (see 2 Macc. 2:7), and now it is finally seen in heaven. The Jewish people would have been absolutely amazed at this. However, John immediately passes over this fact and describes the "woman" clothed with the sun in Rev. 12:1. John is emphasizing that Mary is the Ark of the New Covenant and who, like the Old ark, is now worthy of veneration and praise. Also remember that Rev. 11:19 and Rev. 12:1 are tied together because there was no chapter and verse at the time these texts were written.

Rev 12:1 - the "woman" that John is describing is Mary, the Ark of the New Covenant, with the moon under her feet, and on her head a crown of twelve stars. Just as the moon reflects the light of the sun, so Mary, with the moon under her feet, reflects the glory of the Sun of Justice, Jesus Christ.

Rev. 12:17 - this verse tells us that Mary's offspring are those who keep God's commandments and bear testimony to Jesus. This demonstrates, as Catholics have always believed, that Mary is the Mother of all Christians.

Rev. 12:2 - Some Protestants argue that, because the woman had birth pangs, she was a woman with sin. However, Revelation is apocalyptic literature unique to the 1st century. It contains varied symbolism and multiple meanings of the woman (Mary, the Church and Israel). The birth pangs describe both the birth of the Church and Mary's offspring being formed in Christ. Mary had no birth pangs in delivering her only Son Jesus.

Isaiah 66:7 - for example, we see Isaiah prophesying that before she (Mary) was in labor she gave birth; before her pain came upon her she was delivered of a son (Jesus). This is a Marian prophecy of the virgin birth of Jesus Christ.

Gal 4:19 - Paul also describes his pain as birth pangs in forming the disciples in Christ. Birth pangs describe formation in Christ.

Rom. 8:22 - also, Paul says the whole creation has been groaning in travail before the coming of Christ. We are all undergoing birth pangs because we are being reborn into Jesus Christ.

Jer. 13:21 - Jeremiah describes the birth pangs of Israel, like a woman in travail. Birth pangs are usually used metaphorically in the Scriptures.

Hos. 13:12-13 - Ephraim is also described as travailing in childbirth for his sins. Again, birth pangs are used metaphorically.

Micah 4:9-10 - Micah also describes Jerusalem as being seized by birth pangs like a woman in travail.

Rev. 12:13-16 - in these verses, we see that the devil still seeks to destroy the woman even after the Savior is born. This proves Mary is a danger to satan, even after the birth of Christ. This is because God has given her the power to intercede for us, and we should invoke her assistance in our spiritual lives.

First Christian Writings:

The Ascension of Isaiah

"[T]he report concerning the child was noised abroad in Bethlehem. Some said, ‘The Virgin Mary has given birth before she was married two months.’ And many said, ‘She has not given birth; the midwife has not gone up to her, and we heard no cries of pain’" (Ascension of Isaiah 11 [A.D. 70]).

The Odes of Solomon

"So the Virgin became a mother with great mercies. And she labored and bore the Son, but without pain, because it did not occur without purpose. And she did not seek a midwife, because he caused her to give life. She bore as a strong man, with will . . . " (Odes of Solomon 19 [A.D. 80]).

Justin Martyr

"[Jesus] became man by the Virgin so that the course which was taken by disobedience in the beginning through the agency of the serpent might be also the very course by which it would be put down. Eve, a virgin and undefiled, conceived the word of the serpent and bore disobedience and death. But the Virgin Mary received faith and joy when the angel Gabriel announced to her the glad tidings that the Spirit of the Lord would come upon her and the power of the Most High would overshadow her, for which reason the Holy One being born of her is the Son of God. And she replied ‘Be it done unto me according to your word’ [Luke 1:38]" (Dialogue with Trypho the Jew 100 [A.D. 155]).

Irenaeus

"Consequently, then, Mary the Virgin is found to be obedient, saying, ‘Behold, O Lord, your handmaid; be it done to me according to your word.’ Eve, however, was disobedient, and, when yet a virgin, she did not obey. Just as she, who was then still a virgin although she had Adam for a husband—for in paradise they were both naked but were not ashamed; for, having been created only a short time, they had no understanding of the procreation of children, and it was necessary that they first come to maturity before beginning to multiply—having become disobedient, was made the cause of death for herself and for the whole human race; so also Mary, betrothed to a man but nevertheless still a virgin, being obedient, was made the cause of salvation for herself and for the whole human race. . . . Thus, the knot of Eve’s disobedience was loosed by the obedience of Mary. What the virgin Eve had bound in unbelief, the Virgin Mary loosed through faith" (Against Heresies 3:22:24 [A.D. 189]).

"The Lord then was manifestly coming to his own things, and was sustaining them by means of that creation that is supported by himself. He was making a recapitulation of that disobedience that had occurred in connection with a tree, through the obedience that was upon a tree [i.e., the cross]. Furthermore, the original deception was to be done away with—the deception by which that virgin Eve (who was already espoused to a man) was unhappily misled. That this was to be overturned was happily announced through means of the truth by the angel to the Virgin Mary (who was also [espoused] to a man). . . . So if Eve disobeyed God, yet Mary was persuaded to be obedient to God. In this way, the Virgin Mary might become the advocate of the virgin Eve. And thus, as the human race fell into bondage to death by means of a virgin, so it is rescued by a virgin. Virginal disobedience has been balanced in the opposite scale by virginal obedience. For in the same way, the sin of the first created man received amendment by the correction of the First-Begotten" (ibid., 5:19:1 [A.D. 189]).

Tertullian

"And again, lest I depart from my argumentation on the name of Adam: Why is Christ called Adam by the apostle [Paul], if as man he was not of that earthly origin? But even reason defends this conclusion, that God recovered his image and likeness by a procedure similar to that in which he had been robbed of it by the devil. It was while Eve was still a virgin that the word of the devil crept in to erect an edifice of death. Likewise through a virgin the Word of God was introduced to set up a structure of life. Thus what had been laid waste in ruin by this sex was by the same sex reestablished in salvation. Eve had believed the serpent; Mary believed Gabriel. That which the one destroyed by believing, the other, by believing, set straight" (The Flesh of Christ 17:4 [A.D. 210].

Pseudo-Melito

"If therefore it might come to pass by the power of your grace, it has appeared right to us your servants that, as you, having overcome death, do reign in glory, so you should raise up the body of your Mother and take her with you, rejoicing, into heaven. Then said the Savior [Jesus]: ‘Be it done according to your will’" (The Passing of the Virgin 16:2–17 [A.D. 300]).

Ephraim the Syrian

"You alone and your Mother are more beautiful than any others, for there is no blemish in you nor any stains upon your Mother. Who of my children can compare in beauty to these?" (Nisibene Hymns 27:8 [A.D. 361]).

Ambrose of Milan

"Mary’s life should be for you a pictorial image of virginity. Her life is like a mirror reflecting the face of chastity and the form of virtue. Therein you may find a model for your own life . . . showing what to improve, what to imitate, what to hold fast to" (The Virgins 2:2:6 [A.D. 377]).

"The first thing which kindles ardor in learning is the greatness of the teacher. What is greater [to teach by example] than the Mother of God? What more glorious than she whom Glory Itself chose? What more chaste than she who bore a body without contact with another body? For why should I speak of her other virtues? She was a virgin not only in body but also in mind, who stained the sincerity of its disposition by no guile, who was humble in heart, grave in speech, prudent in mind, sparing of words, studious in reading, resting her hope not on uncertain riches, but on the prayer of the poor, intent on work, modest in discourse; wont to seek not man but God as the judge of her thoughts, to injure no one, to have goodwill towards all, to rise up before her elders, not to envy her equals, to avoid boastfulness, to follow reason, to love virtue. When did she pain her parents even by a look? When did she disagree with her neighbors? When did she despise the lowly? When did she avoid the needy?" (ibid., 2:2:7).

"Come, then, and search out your sheep, not through your servants or hired men, but do it yourself. Lift me up bodily and in the flesh, which is fallen in Adam. Lift me up not from Sarah but from Mary, a virgin not only undefiled, but a virgin whom grace had made inviolate, free of every stain of sin" (Commentary on Psalm 118:22–30 [A.D. 387]).

Augustine

"Our Lord . . . was not averse to males, for he took the form of a male, nor to females, for of a female he was born. Besides, there is a great mystery here: that just as death comes to us through a woman, life is born to us through a woman; that the devil, defeated, would be tormented by each nature, feminine and masculine, as he had taken delight in the defection of both" (Christian Combat 22:24 [A.D. 396]).

"That one woman is both mother and virgin, not in spirit only but even in body. In spirit she is mother, not of our head, who is our Savior himself—of whom all, even she herself, are rightly called children of the bridegroom—but plainly she is the mother of us who are his members, because by love she has cooperated so that the faithful, who are the members of that head, might be born in the Church. In body, inDouche, she is the Mother of that very head" (Holy Virginity 6:6 [A.D. 401]).

...

"Having excepted the holy Virgin Mary, concerning whom, on account of the honor of the Lord, I wish to have absolutely no question when treating of sins—for how do we know what abundance of grace for the total overcoming of sin was conferred upon her, who merited to conceive and bear him in whom there was no sin?—so, I say, with the exception of the Virgin, if we could have gathered together all those holy men and women, when they were living here, and had asked them whether they were without sin, what do we suppose would have been their answer?" (Nature and Grace 36:42 [A.D. 415]).

Timothy of Jerusalem

"Therefore the Virgin is immortal to this day, seeing that he who had dwelt in her transported her to the regions of her assumption" (Homily on Simeon and Anna [A.D. 400]).

John the Theologian

"[T]he Lord said to his Mother, ‘Let your heart rejoice and be glad, for every favor and every gift has been given to you from my Father in heaven and from me and from the Holy Spirit. Every soul that calls upon your name shall not be ashamed, but shall find mercy and comfort and support and confidence, both in the world that now is and in that which is to come, in the presence of my Father in the heavens’" (The Falling Asleep of Mary [A.D. 400]).

"And from that time forth all knew that the spotless and precious body had been transferred to paradise" (ibid.).

Gregory of Tours

"The course of this life having been completed by blessed Mary, when now she would be called from the world, all the apostles came together from their various regions to her house. And when they had heard that she was about to be taken from the world, they kept watch together with her. And behold, the Lord Jesus came with his angels, and, taking her soul, he gave it over to the angel Michael and withdrew. At daybreak, however, the apostles took up her body on a bier and placed it in a tomb, and they guarded it, expecting the Lord to come. And behold, again the Lord stood by them; the holy body having been received, he commanded that it be taken in a cloud into paradise, where now, rejoined to the soul, [Mary’s body] rejoices with the Lord’s chosen ones and is in the enjoyment of the good of an eternity that will never end" (Eight Books of Miracles 1:4 [A.D. 584]).

"But Mary, the glorious Mother of Christ, who is believed to be a virgin both before and after she bore him, has, as we said above, been translated into paradise, amid the singing of the angelic choirs, whither the Lord preceded her" (ibid., 1:8).

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

[jasJis]

Freaky,

Mary's sinlessness is not just a Catholic thing. The idea that Mary wasn't sinless is a new Doctrine developed by the newer Protestant theologies. Lutherans, Anglicans, and many others, hold to the same Doctrine.

Yes. She was sinless for her entire life. Mary is a created human creature, exactly like you and I. God's Grace was given to her that enabled her, as a human, to resist sin. (See Luke "Hail Mary, full of Grace"). Mary's example to us is to say Yes to God. That is all she did as a human. She said Yes to God about Jesus. The Fullness of Grace, is an additional gift, a reward so to speak, from God. After all, it's God's own commandmant to "Honor our Mother and our Father". Mary said Yes to God, and is mother of Jesus who is God. (Hence, Mary, Mother of God). She is mother to the Human nature of Jesus, but we shoud never forget Jesus is God. She did not contribute to Jesus' Godliness (how can she, she's a created creature of God), but she motherd Jesus God when he was a human infant.

Basically, she was sinless because of God's Grace, and her accepting it.

It doesn't say it explicitly in Scripture, but it is explained logically with the addition of what was taught by the Apostles and believed and taught in the early Church. It was accepted by all Christians until it was questioned 1,700 years later and had to be addressed officially. I'm sure we can provide further info if you want.

[Freaky Chik]

Thanks guys for your responses

I admit I just skimmed over yours Ironmonk, but I'll read it fully and properly when I'm more awake (It's 12:45am here )

Thanks again!

God bless

[CatholicAndFanatical]

Hey freaky, did you get a chance to read over ironmonks replies again? Everything he stated there is very important, and factual. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts after you do.

God Bless,

CatholicAndFanatical

[Paladin D]

Hey freaky, did you get a chance to read over ironmonks replies again? Everything he stated there is very important, and factual. I would be interested in hearing your thoughts after you do.

      God Bless,

          CatholicAndFanatical

She will later she said, it's very very very early there.

[Freaky Chik]

it's now 12:39pm here... and i just woke up... YEP I'M LAZY!!! I'm going to my church office now though... so after work tonight I'll read it :)

[goldenchild17]

Please do. The technique of writing if the form of TYPOLOGY was very popular in scripture. This is how scripture should be read, many doctrines of the Church become blatantly clear after doing so.

[soundguy]

Just a question....but isn't there as verse in the bible that says:

"FOR ALL have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God"

correct me if I am wrong there

[soundguy]

Only two people in the bible are called to be Full of Grace... Mary and Jesus.

Jesus got all of His flesh from Mary, she had to be pure. She was the ark of the New Covenant...

Where is the proof that she is the ark of the new covenant?

Bible references please. Just interested thats all. As I have never read that in the bible before in my life!

[jasJis]

Just a question....but isn't there as verse in the bible that says:

"FOR ALL have sinned and have fallen short of the glory of God"

correct me if I am wrong there

SoundGuy,

Welcome back. Haven't seen you in a while. Not even at YAB.

There are lot's of times that Scripture says ALL, or NONE, or 7 times 70. You have to relate it to the context of passage. Does that passage also mean that if Jesus truely had real human nature, that he sinned as well? Does that mean there is no innocence? Or does it mean that all humans need the grace of God to overcome the penalty of original sin? That would relate to Mary's sinlessness. She was saved from the penalty of origianl sin (sharing in the sin of Adam and Eve) by God's grace alone. She was full of Grace.

jasJis

[soundguy]

Hi JJ

Yeah, I have been extremly busy.

You never actually answered my question. Where does it say that Mary was the ark of the new convenant? Your belief that Mary was sinless all falls back on that, and since you havn't shown my any proof that Mary is the ark of the new convevant then your beliefs all fall down. Unless you can prove it by using the bible.

[jasJis]

soundguy,

Say a prayer to the Holy Spirit that you may be open to God's will for you to know Him, even if it comes from a Catholic.

Why does it have to be explicitly spelled out in the Bible for everyone. Where did the Bible come from? The Bible doesn't ever claim it contains everything. You believe in the Holy Spirit speaking to you and providing discernment, don't you.

The Bible is God's inerrant Word and is not contradicted. How can we call Mary the Ark of the New Covenant? What is an Ark of the Covenant? It is the vessel that contains and carries the presence of God's very WORD in the midst of His people. Jesus is the WORD made Flesh. The Flesh was carried in the womb of Mary, who is a vessel of God's grace and the vessel of the WORD in our midst.

Nothing in Scripture is contradicted, and much Scripture supports that discernment. Early Church leaders, taught this as well. IronMonk provided Scripture and Early Church leaders, and what was taught as correct by the Church. Scripture itself tells us that the revealation of the Holy Spirit into our hearts is validated in Scripture AND the Church. It is so nonsensical to claim the Holy Spirit is limited to Scripture and our Hearts alone. If you accept that the HS speaks in your heart, than you must accept the fact that it speaks in other's hearts. Do you dismiss the HS that speaks in others? Than what was the point of Apostles, Disciples, Prophets, even John the Baptist and Jesus?

It is your beliefs that crumble from pride when you believe all you need is yourself and Scripture. You cannot contain all knowledge of God in yourself.

[soundguy]

JJ,

The Ark of the covenant was a box that they carried the 10 commandments in.

It is the vessel that contains and carries the presence of God's very WORD in the midst of His people.

I have God inside of me... does that mean I am the ark of the new new convenant? -- so reallt than I am sinless -- no, heck not! I don't claim to be, I strive to be (I never will get there when I am on earth, I admit to that...we live in a world full of sin)

I am not saying that scripture contradicts. None of those bible verses quoted above talk about Mary being sinless. Some tlak about Mary, and some talk about the Ark of the new convenant.

It is your beliefs that crumble from pride when you believe all you need is yourself and Scripture. You cannot contain all knowledge of God in yourself.

I don't believe that all I need is myself and Scripture. I have a personal relationship with Christ Jesus, my saviour! (Praise God for that!). The bible is the closet thing we can get to on earth that talks about Jesus' life and direction for life without asking Him directorly (Yes, I ask Him for guidness).

So yeah...enough rambling. I still don't believe my question has been answered. Actually it has, you can't find anything that says it!