Luke 1:28 Vs. Acts 6:8

[ICTHUS]

Okay, so I know that we often use the Greek of Luke 1:28 as justification for Mary's immaculate conception

Luke 1:28 (Gk)

Kai eiselthon pros auten eipen, "Caire, kecharitomene!, ho Kurios meta sou."

The Greek, in this case "Caire, kecharitomene" can be broken down into the following.

Caire = hail/rejoice = quite justifiable, either translation, given that the Angel was bearing news that Mary was to bear the Messiah in her womb.

Kecharitomene = the past perfect participle of "charitoo" - "to fill or endow with grace"

From this we can infer that the "filling" with sanctifying grace (by definition, if someone is filled with sanctifying grace, they have no sin in them, since grace cannot occupy where sin exists) occured at a time before the Annunciation to Our Lady.

However, when compared with other passages which refer to "full of grace" it becomes a problem

Acts 6:8 (Gk)

Stephanos, de pleres charitos kai dunameos epoiei terata kai semeia megala en to lao.

Here, Stephen is described as "pleres charitos" or "full of charitos (grace)"

So does that mean that Stephen was sinless as well?

Is anyone here a Greek scholar that can help me out with this one?

Edited October 9, 2003 by ICTHUS

[Mary's Knight, La]

Not a greek scholar but a priest explained that the language for Mary could easier be explained Hail Mary who is and has always (for the extent of her life) been full of grace.... Meaning she was born with sanctifying grace and never lost it

for stephen the language is different and he would have been full of grace after confession just as all of us are full of grace after confession and after worthy reception of Christ in the Eucharist

but i'll take the verses to the CSO campus minister and see if he can help with it

[Anna]

So, to simplify this....?

Gabriel would have said something like, "Hail, who has always been filled grace..."

And St. Stephen, at the time of his martyrdom, was filled with the grace at that time to receive the martyr's crown and see the beatific vision...

Is it peanut time?????

Pax Christi. <><

[ironmonk]

Don't forget... they spoke Aramaic... getting technical on the Greek sometimes is kind of a pointless arguement...

We need to look at what the first Christians said... God Bless the ECF writings... they help us soooo much.

Only Jesus and Mary where sinless.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

Edited October 9, 2003 by ironmonk

[Jake Huether]

I tend to direct my attention to the portion of the Bible that said, "Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven".

And the Church has declared that Mary was sinless, and that Stephan was not. So, since they "bound" it that way, that way will I accept it.

;)

[Aloysius]

some ECF said John the Baptist was sinless....

i don't believe it. the way some of em had it was that he was the new adam, which kinda makes sense when u think of Mary as the new Eve bringing the fruit to a new Adam, if Jesus is the fruit then it kinda makes sense that way. however, St. Paul was inspired by God to declare Jesus the new adam, thus disproving that theory. It also makes sense that way, though. Mary is the new Eve and the new Garden of Eden, and Jesus is the new Adam and the new fruit, and the cross is the new tree of good n evil.

[cmotherofpirl]

Don't forget... they spoke Aramaic... getting technical on the Greek sometimes is kind of a pointless arguement...

We need to look at what the first Christians said... God Bless the ECF writings... they help us soooo much.

Only Jesus and Mary where sinless.

God Bless, Your Servant in Christ,

ironmonk

THe Gospel of Luke was written in Greek, not Aramaic.

Some of the Church FAthers said John the Baptist became sinless when Mary greeted Elizabeth.

The word used in Luke referring to Mary is a different word from the one referring to Stephen.

[ICTHUS]

The word used in Luke referring to Mary is a different word from the one referring to Stephen.

No, it isin't.

"Kecharitomene" (Luke 1:28)

"Pleres charis" (Acts 6:8)

"Kecharitomene" is the past perfect participle of "charitoo" - to fill or endow with grace.

"Pleres charis" is literally "filled up with charis" (grace)

[cmotherofpirl]

they don't look the same to me :lol:

[ICTHUS]

They are the same verb, in two different tenses.

The verb is "charitoo" - to fill or endow with grace, spelled

Chi-alpha-rho-iota-tau-omega.

[cmotherofpirl]

I was teasing.

[cmotherofpirl]

The Angel Gabriel greeted Mary with the words, "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed our thou amongst women." He called her "full of grace" before she was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and conceived! [Moreover, if Mary were not sinless, she would have transmitted original sin to Jesus genetically]. The Greek work used in Luke 1:28, sometimes translated as "favored one" or "highly favored one" is more properly translated "full of grace." The Greek word is kecharitomene, which is the perfect passive participle, which indicates a completed action with permanent result. Thus it translates, "completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace." [in comparison, the word used in Ephesians 1:6 and applied to the saints is charis]. St. Thomas Aquinas, a great medieval doctor of the Church, writes, "The Blessed Virgin Mary is full of grace both with respect to operation and to the avoidance of evil. Second, she was full of grace with respect to the overflow of soul to flesh or body. For it is a great thing for the saints to have enough grace to sanctify their soul; but the soul of the Blessed Virgin Mary was so full that from it graces flowed into her body, in order that with it she might conceive the Son of God."

from Catholic Faith and Reason

[Chrysologus]

I tend to direct my attention to the portion of the Bible that said, "Whatever you bind on earth is bound in heaven".

This tends to get brought up in a lot of threads, I've noticed, but it's totally irrelevant. The fact that the church is infallible doesn't excuse her from having to prove her doctrines from scripture and tradition. Kudos to those who respond using well-reasoned, respectful, and charitable arguments from those two pillars of our faith.

[Aloysius]

diagrams are fun! this goes with the topic Chrysologus just brought up, not the topic of the thread cause that was already answered anyway

tell me what u think!

[ICTHUS]

The Angel Gabriel greeted Mary with the words, "Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee, blessed our thou amongst women."  He called her "full of grace" before she was overshadowed by the Holy Spirit and conceived! [Moreover, if Mary were not sinless, she would have transmitted original sin to Jesus genetically].  The Greek work used in Luke 1:28, sometimes translated as "favored one" or "highly favored one" is more properly translated "full of grace."  The Greek word is kecharitomene, which is the perfect passive participle, which indicates a completed action with permanent result.  Thus it translates, "completely, perfectly, enduringly endowed with grace."  [in comparison, the word used in Ephesians 1:6 and applied to the saints is charis].  St. Thomas Aquinas, a great medieval doctor of the Church,  writes, "The Blessed Virgin Mary is full of grace both with respect to operation and to the avoidance of evil. Second, she was full of grace with respect to the overflow of soul to flesh or body. For it is a great thing for the saints to have enough grace to sanctify their soul; but the soul of the Blessed Virgin Mary was so full that from it graces flowed into her body, in order that with it she might conceive the Son of God."

from Catholic Faith and Reason

Granted, however, "pleres charis" and "kecharitomene" both mean "filled up with grace"

However, pleres is an adjective, meaning "full" and charis is a noun, meaning "grace"

Full of what?

Full of GRACE.

However, kecharitomene is a verb....

Im musing to myself...

It would REALLY help if there were a Greek scholar on this here board...