amarkich Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 quoniam omnes dii gentium daemonia at vero Dominus caelos fecit "All the gods of the Gentiles are devils, but the Lord made the heavens." Psalm XCV This is quite a touchy topic among many reformist (ecumenical) "Catholics". I have heard some good speakers on the issue, especially Gerry Matatics, but this truth is one that is often ignored, hated, or altogether misrepresented by many so-called "Catholic" reformists, both 'theologians' and speakers alike. I am curious to see what the consensus at Phatmass is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thy Geekdom Come Posted November 18, 2004 Share Posted November 18, 2004 Well, I think that the pagan gods don't really exist, and therefore aren't demons per se, although demons could have appeared as them. Now one could ask whether they were inspired by demons and to an extent they were, in that demons tempted us away from the truth of God to the falsities of pagan deities. However, many pagan gods had characteristics which were still intrinsically good, such as honor and justice, and many of them were almost proto-Christian. I tend to think that Satan lured people away from belief in God and inspired the worship of false gods, but because humans are built in the image of God, I don't think he could entirely trick us into worshipping purely evil ideals, because we could tell instrinsically that there was something wrong with them. Essentially, I think Satan tricked us from God, and God is trying to use Satan's tricks to switch them around on him and bring good out of them. As for the psalms, taking into context that they are largely poetic, I find this to be a suitable explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Socrates Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 Some probably are demons (Moloch, Baal, the Aztec gods and others of a bloodthirsty and vile nature). Others are probably for the most part figments of the human imagination (personifications of various forces of nature, human emotions, other abstract qualities, etc.) - Many of the Greek/Roman/Germanic gods would fall under the latter category. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 aside from the displeasing ones, the ones that are pleasing would be more likely. Better to tempt people away, don't you know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CatholicCrusader Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 What the Psalm says is that all the gods of the Gentiles are devils. What it clearly means is that every god they invented is actuallty a devil. It means when they are worshipping their false gods, they are actually worshipping devils, not just the figment of their imagination (hence they are worshipping evil not nothing). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pio Nono Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 JMJ 11/19 - Thirty-third Friday Though it's been about a year since I've seriously studied Latin, I dispute the translation of "daemonia" as "devils". Besides, "daemonia" is a Greek concept that was alive at the time of the writing of this Psalm, so it might be a good idea to look into what a "daemon" is. In the end, though, idolatry is always an offense against God Most High. We'll leave it to God to judge individual culpability. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fool4Christ Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 I've never been asked that question before. Very interesting. My opinion, though, is that no, most pagan "gods" are not demons - at least not at first. I think they are usually originally the products of man's natural desire for religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Don John of Austria Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 YES! Yes! Yes! Although I think that it is certianly likely that sometimes made up Gods with out any demonic intervention, even those would have soon had a demon attach itself to the worship, the better to lead people astray.At anyrate I have had some experiance with Paganism and unfortunatly some serious experiance with the demonic there is no dobt in my mind that they are the same. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Good Friday Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 [quote name='Don John of Austria']YES! Yes! Yes! Although I think that it is certianly likely that sometimes made up Gods with out any demonic intervention, even those would have soon had a demon attach itself to the worship, the better to lead people astray.At anyrate I have had some experiance with Paganism and unfortunatly some serious experiance with the demonic there is no dobt in my mind that they are the same.[/quote] What he said. I'm a convert to the Faith from paganism, and I can attest to the fact that there is some power behind pagan gods. If the power is not God, and it isn't, then the power is clearly demonic. I also think it's silly to say that "daemonia" may not translate to devils -- even if that's true, and even if the Greeks had some other concept of "daemonia," any preternatural being that is not God or an angel is clearly a demon, regardless of what the Greeks thought it was. Saying that there is no demonic influence behind the occult is just plain ridiculous. The true story upon which [i]The Exorcist[/i] is based was a case of a child using a spirit board and becoming possessed as a result. So, I agree with Don John -- perhaps the pagans did invent their gods from their own imaginations, but there was a demon waiting in the wings to fill that void without a doubt. This is well supported scripturally and doctrinally. And it does nothing for interreligious dialogue to allow pagans to continue believing they are worshipping anything less than the devil and his fallen angels -- but it could lead to their possession. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
God Conquers Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 Yes I believe it to be true. Especially the New Age conception of "God". Those "Conversation With God" books are deeply disturbing and INCREDIBLY damaging. There is no question in my mind that that man is being led by Satan, and that Satan is using those books as a means of pulling people away from God and into hedonism and relativism, his favorite vices. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pio Nono Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 JMJ 11/19 - Thirty-third Friday [quote]Those "Conversation With God" books are deeply disturbing and INCREDIBLY damaging.[/quote] You don't mean [i]In Conversation with God[/i] by Fernandez, do you? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cmotherofpirl Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 I think he means the fantasies written by our friend Carderro. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted November 19, 2004 Share Posted November 19, 2004 yeah, what is that guy's story... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Winchester Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 Sometimes the gods of the gentiles is also good eatin' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dave Posted December 1, 2004 Share Posted December 1, 2004 [quote name='Pio Nono' date='Nov 19 2004, 11:18 AM'] JMJ 11/19 - Thirty-third Friday You don't mean [i]In Conversation with God[/i] by Fernandez, do you? [/quote] No, what he means is a book called "Conversations With God." The author's name escapes me. Anyway, it's not the same book as the "In Conversation With God" series. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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