Who Are You?

[Freaky Chik]

I like u unshackled.. i really do :)

[jasJis]

Perhaps if aggression could be avoided and discussion encouraged, we could find some common ground. I doubt it!

When you post that, and then say you 'doubt it', you set it up for expected failure. Through God, all things are possible!

It's not Catholic Doctrine that misleads, but people's failure to understand or follow it. B)

[Katholikos]

Born into a Catholic family. Mother is still Catholic, Father died some years ago. Married in a Catholic church, failed to find answers to fundamental truths. Now a strong protestant  and guided by the Holy Spirit. Interesting fact that I can see where Catholic doctrine can mislead some and guide others. Perhaps if aggression could be avoided and discussion encouraged, we could find some common ground. I doubt it!

What's interesting is that you believe that truth is relative -- that is, that every conflicting and competing denomination or doctrine can be "true." You "can see how Catholic doctrine can lead some and misguide others." Oh, really!

You allege that you weren't before, but now you are, being "led by the Holy Spirit" -- the same Holy Spirit (so Protestants claim) that has led 33,820 founders of denominations (not counting so-called independent churches) into different answers to the same questions, based on the same partial, 66-book, abbreviated version of the Bible.

If the Holy Spirit wasn't leading other Protestants who don't believe as you do into "all truth," what makes you think he's leading you? Truth is logic and has nothing to do with emotion. Protestantism is illogical.

What's your denomination? I guarantee you it is man-made and so are its doctrines. Freaky, the same goes for your church. You both have some of the truth ("borrowed" from the Catholic Church) but all of the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is found only in the Church founded by Christ that you have rejected.

The odds are pretty good that you do not know what the Catholic Church teaches, or it's history, or the history of the Bible you claim to believe is the "Word of God."

You shouldn't look for "truth" in a denomination that is man-made and based on an incomplete Bible that was desecrated by Martin Luther. The Catholic Church didn't come out of the Bible -- the bible came out of the Catholic Church!

The Catholic Church wrote the New Testament, and she formed the Bible when she was nearly 400 years old. There was no Bible as we know it until then!

Look for TRUTH ITSELF in Jesus Christ and in the Church He founded -- the Catholic Church.

You've been duped, my friend.

Katholikos

Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

Edited October 13, 2003 by Katholikos

[Dave]

Born into a Catholic family. Mother is still Catholic, Father died some years ago. Married in a Catholic church, failed to find answers to fundamental truths. Now a strong protestant  and guided by the Holy Spirit. Interesting fact that I can see where Catholic doctrine can mislead some and guide others. Perhaps if aggression could be avoided and discussion encouraged, we could find some common ground. I doubt it!

You probably didn't find answers to fundamental truths because you weren't looking hard enough. And if you were truly guided by the Holy Spirit, you would never have left the Church. As I've said many times on this phorum, God doesn't lead ANYBODY to leave the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church contains the fullness of what God has revealed, and He DOES NOT and CANNOT lead anyone to do whatever is at odds with that truth. God doesn't lie.

Unshackled, I hate to tell you, but you left the Catholic Church not because of God, but because of your feelings and opinions. If you allow those to be your guide, you will ALWAYS be led astray.

[BlondewithaBrain]

I would respond with option 1. I was raised Catholic, and i still am, however, i was exposed to protestanism a lot.l My mom was protestant her whole life, and when she married a catholic, she remained protestant. I went to mass with her often, and as a result can relate to protestants sometimes better than my fellow catholics. I did not go to catholic school.

[Katholikos]

You probably didn't find answers to fundamental truths because you weren't looking hard enough.  And if you were truly guided by the Holy Spirit, you would never have left the Church.  As I've said many times on this phorum, God doesn't lead ANYBODY to leave the Catholic Church.  The Catholic Church contains the fullness of what God has revealed, and He DOES NOT and CANNOT lead anyone to do whatever is at odds with that truth.  God doesn't lie. 

Unshackled, I hate to tell you, but you left the Catholic Church not because of God, but because of your feelings and opinions.  If you allow those to be your guide, you will ALWAYS be led astray.

True, dat! Well said, Dave!

Christ founded His Church for the salvation of the world and wills all men to be saved through His Church. .

To believe that the Holy Spirit, who was God Himself, Third Person of the Blessed Trinity, would lead anyone OUT of the Church founded by Jesus Christ, who was God Himself, Second Person of the Blessed Trinity, is preposterous.

Matthew 16:18-19 RSV: And I tell you, you are rock (Kephas, Peter) and upon this rock (Kephas, Peter) I will build my church, and the powers of death shall not prevail against it. I will give you (Peter) the keys of the kingdom of heaven, and whatever you bind on earth shall be bound in heaven, and whatever you loose on earth shall be loosed in heaven."

John 1:42 RSV: "...Jesus looked at him, and said, "So you are Simon the son of John? You shall be called 'Cephas' (which means Peter)."

Cephas is Greek, Kephas is Aramaic (Jesus spoke Aramaic.)

For the record, "preposterous" means completely contrary to nature, reason or common sense. Synonym: ABSURD (Webster).

Note that Christ used the future tense when he said, 'I will build my Church on Peter'; then read Acts 2. The Church was born with the coming of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost. Peter was in charge from the beginning, the number one spiritual father ("Pope" means father).

Then read my "signature" below: "...where Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church," 107 A.D.

The Catholic Church is the One True Church, as is was in the beginning, is now, and ever will be, world without end, Amen

Katholikos

Ex-Southern Baptist, ex-agnostic, ex-atheist, ecstatic to be Catholic!

[Unshackled]

What's your denomination?  I guarantee you it is man-made and so are its doctrines.  Freaky, the same goes for your church.  You both have some of the truth ("borrowed" from the Catholic Church) but all of the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth is found only in the Church founded by Christ that you have rejected. 

Nowhere in the HOLY BIBLE (any version you choose) will I find the words Catholic. Despite your best efforts to justify your PERSONAL beliefs will you find that the teachings of Jesus were limited to only one particular people. If you bother to read you will discover that only the Jews were chosen but when they did not accept Jesus then PETER was sent to deliver the message of salvation to the gentiles. Please do not assume that God in his wisdom was not aware of the potential difficulties of understanding His divine plan for ALL of mankind. We are guided by the HOLY SPIRIT, not the teachings of man. If you have a problem with this, take it up with my Father in heaven. :wub:

[Carson Weber]

1) I've been brought up Catholic, and still am catholic by the grace of God!

The greatest discovery of my life was finding out that the nominal Catholicism I was raised in was merely the tip of the iceberg of truth when studying business at Texas A&M University. This discovery altered my life in a radical way because I fully embraced what was only a culture at the time for me. I still wake up and have to pinch myself just to make sure that I'm not dreaming. I'm Catholic!!!

Edited October 17, 2003 by Carson Weber

[Katholikos]

Nowhere in the HOLY BIBLE (any version you choose) will I find the words Catholic. Despite your best efforts to justify your PERSONAL beliefs will you find that the teachings of Jesus were limited to only one particular people. If you bother to read you will discover that only the Jews were chosen but when they did not accept Jesus then PETER was sent to deliver the message of salvation to the gentiles. Please do not assume that God in his wisdom was not aware of the potential difficulties of understanding His divine plan for ALL of mankind. We are guided by the HOLY SPIRIT, not the teachings of man. If you have a problem with this, take it up with my Father in heaven. :wub:

Unshackled,

Names are given to distinguish one person or thing from another. Christ didn't need to give the Church a name -- he founded only ONE. No other church existed, so he simply called it "church" (Greek: ekklesia). The Apostles, who probably originated the term 'Catholic,' weren't naming the Church but describing it, and the term stuck. Ignatius of Antioch was the first to write the name "Catholic Church," in 107 A.D. He too was describing it -- Katholikos, Greek (Catholic, English) means universal. This "universal" church had spread all over the then known world by the time Ignatius' teacher and mentor, St. John the Apostle, had died around the end of the first century and Ignatius wrote his letters a short time later.

But the Church called Catholic in 107 A.D. was founded by Christ on St. Peter (Mt 16:18-19) in 33 A.D. for the salvation of the world. It was the only Church He founded, the only one the Apostles led and taught "all that Christ commanded" (Mt 28:20), the only one Christ promised would be guided by the Holy Spirit ALWAYS (Jn 14:16 et. al.). It is the One True Church that still exists today.

All Protestant churches are based on different interpretations of the same Bible. All Catholic doctrines were taught by the Apostles before the New Testament was written and the Bible was formed.

And the Bible says the CHURCH is the "household of God, which is church of the living God, the pillar and foundation of truth" 1 Tim 3:15.

If all Protestants are led by the Holy Spirit, the Spirit has got some 'splaining to do, because all 33,820 (and counting) of your denominations disagree with each of the others. Is the Holy Spirit leading you all to "all truth" and giving you different answers to the same questions? Does the Holy Spirit, who is God, contradict Himself? Uh uh.

How well do you know history? How well do you know the teaching of the Catholic Church? How well do you know the Scriptures?

"To be deep in history is to cease to be a Protestant," John Henry Newman, former Anglican clergyman who became a Catholic through his study of history, in his book, "An Essay on the History of Christian Doctrine" (Image, p. 38).

No Protestant church existed before 1517. You tell me your denomination and I'll tell you the name of the man (or men) who made it, including its distinguishing doctrines.

Peace be to you and all.

Katholikos

[Robyn]

Mat 23:1 Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples,

Mat 23:2 "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.

Mat 23:3 So do whatever they tell you and follow it, but stop doing what they do, because they don't do what they say.

Mat 23:4 They tie up burdens that are heavy and unbearable and lay them on people's shoulders, but they refuse to lift a finger to remove them.

Mat 23:5 "They do all their actions to be seen by people. They increase the size of their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.

Mat 23:6 They love to have the places of honor at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues,

Mat 23:7 to be greeted in the marketplaces, and to be called 'Rabbi' by people.

Mat 23:8 "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one teacher, and all of you are brothers.

Mat 23:9 And don't call anyone on earth 'Father,' for you have only one Father, the one in heaven.

Mat 23:10 Nor are you to be called 'Teachers,' for you have only one teacher, the Christ!

Mat 23:11 The person who is greatest among you must be your servant.

Mat 23:12 Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mat 23:13 "How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door to the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You don't go in yourselves, and you don't allow those who are trying to enter to go in.

Mat 23:14 How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You devour widows' houses and say long prayers to cover it up. Therefore, you will receive greater condemnation!

Mat 23:15 "How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over sea and land to make a single convert, and when this happens you make him twice as fit for hell as you are.

Mat 23:16 "How terrible it will be for you, blind guides! You say, 'Whoever swears an oath by the sanctuary is excused, but whoever swears an oath by the gold of the sanctuary must keep his oath.'

Mat 23:17 You blind geniuses! What is more important, the gold or the sanctuary that made the gold holy?

Mat 23:18 Again you say, 'Whoever swears an oath by the altar is excused, but whoever swears by the gift that is on it must keep his oath.'

Mat 23:19 You blind men! Which is more important, the gift or the altar that makes the gift holy?

Mat 23:20 Therefore, the one who swears an oath by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.

Mat 23:21 The one who swears an oath by the sanctuary swears by it and by the one who lives there.

Mat 23:22 And the one who swears an oath by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.

Mat 23:23 "How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! For you give a tenth of your mint, dill, and cummin, but have neglected the more important matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness. These are the things you should have practiced, without neglecting the others.

Mat 23:24 You blind guides! You fiddler out a gnat, yet swallow a camel!

Mat 23:25 "How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but on the inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.

Mat 23:26 You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup, so that its outside may also be clean.

Mat 23:27 "How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs that look beautiful on the outside but inside are full of dead people's bones and every kind of impurity.

Mat 23:28 In the same way, on the outside you look righteous to people, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

Mat 23:29 "How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous.

Mat 23:30 Then you say, 'If we had been living in the days of our ancestors, we would have had no part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'

Mat 23:31 Therefore, you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets.

Mat 23:32 Then finish what your ancestors started!

Mat 23:33 You snakes, you children of serpents! How can you escape being condemned to hell?

Mat 23:34 "That is why I am sending you prophets, wise men, and scribes. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will whip in your synagogues and persecute from town to town.

Mat 23:35 As a result, you will be held accountable for all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of the righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.

Mat 23:36 Truly I tell you, all these things will happen to this generation."

Mat 23:37 "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones to death those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you didn't want to!

Mat 23:38 Look! Your house is left to you deserted!

Mat 23:39 For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'How blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord!'"

If anybody reads this, maybe you will understand that we worship JESUS....my church is based on TRUTH - Jesus himself condemned the religious teachers and called them hypocrits (I prefer the NIV version, but it's not on my program) and suggested they spent too much time on man-made rules and missed GOD. They made their own rules equal to, or above God's law.... my church has no man-made laws...we have GOD'S LAW - who cares about denomination.

It saddens me that verse 37 describes so many people today - Jesus is waiting for them and longing to protect them and love them, but people are so obsessed with religious tradition that they forget the one they are made to worship.

[Dave]

Mat 23:1  Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples,

Mat 23:2  "The scribes and the Pharisees sit in Moses' seat.

Mat 23:3  So do whatever they tell you and follow it, but stop doing what they do, because they don't do what they say.

Mat 23:4  They tie up burdens that are heavy and unbearable and lay them on people's shoulders, but they refuse to lift a finger to remove them.

Mat 23:5  "They do all their actions to be seen by people. They increase the size of their phylacteries and lengthen the tassels of their garments.

Mat 23:6  They love to have the places of honor at feasts, the best seats in the synagogues,

Mat 23:7  to be greeted in the marketplaces, and to be called 'Rabbi' by people.

Mat 23:8  "But you are not to be called 'Rabbi,' for you have only one teacher, and all of you are brothers.

Mat 23:9  And don't call anyone on earth 'Father,' for you have only one Father, the one in heaven.

Mat 23:10  Nor are you to be called 'Teachers,' for you have only one teacher, the Christ!

Mat 23:11  The person who is greatest among you must be your servant.

Mat 23:12  Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted.

Mat 23:13  "How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the door to the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. You don't go in yourselves, and you don't allow those who are trying to enter to go in.

Mat 23:14  How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You devour widows' houses and say long prayers to cover it up. Therefore, you will receive greater condemnation!

Mat 23:15  "How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over sea and land to make a single convert, and when this happens you make him twice as fit for hell as you are.

Mat 23:16  "How terrible it will be for you, blind guides! You say, 'Whoever swears an oath by the sanctuary is excused, but whoever swears an oath by the gold of the sanctuary must keep his oath.'

Mat 23:17  You blind geniuses! What is more important, the gold or the sanctuary that made the gold holy?

Mat 23:18  Again you say, 'Whoever swears an oath by the altar is excused, but whoever swears by the gift that is on it must keep his oath.'

Mat 23:19  You blind men! Which is more important, the gift or the altar that makes the gift holy?

Mat 23:20  Therefore, the one who swears an oath by the altar swears by it and by everything on it.

Mat 23:21  The one who swears an oath by the sanctuary swears by it and by the one who lives there.

Mat 23:22  And the one who swears an oath by heaven swears by God's throne and by the one who sits on it.

Mat 23:23  "How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! For you give a tenth of your mint, dill, and cummin, but have neglected the more important matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faithfulness. These are the things you should have practiced, without neglecting the others.

Mat 23:24  You blind guides! You fiddler out a gnat, yet swallow a camel!

Mat 23:25  "How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You clean the outside of the cup and the plate, but on the inside they are full of greed and self-indulgence.

Mat 23:26  You blind Pharisee! First clean the inside of the cup, so that its outside may also be clean.

Mat 23:27  "How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You are like whitewashed tombs that look beautiful on the outside but inside are full of dead people's bones and every kind of impurity.

Mat 23:28  In the same way, on the outside you look righteous to people, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness.

Mat 23:29  "How terrible it will be for you, scribes and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You build tombs for the prophets and decorate the monuments of the righteous.

Mat 23:30  Then you say, 'If we had been living in the days of our ancestors, we would have had no part with them in shedding the blood of the prophets.'

Mat 23:31  Therefore, you testify against yourselves that you are descendants of those who murdered the prophets.

Mat 23:32  Then finish what your ancestors started!

Mat 23:33  You snakes, you children of serpents! How can you escape being condemned to hell?

Mat 23:34  "That is why I am sending you prophets, wise men, and scribes. Some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will whip in your synagogues and persecute from town to town.

Mat 23:35  As a result, you will be held accountable for all the righteous blood shed on earth, from the blood of the righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the sanctuary and the altar.

Mat 23:36  Truly I tell you, all these things will happen to this generation."

Mat 23:37  "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones to death those who have been sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you didn't want to!

Mat 23:38  Look! Your house is left to you deserted!

Mat 23:39  For I tell you, you will not see me again until you say, 'How blessed is the one who comes in the name of the Lord!'"

If anybody reads this, maybe you will understand that we worship JESUS....my church is based on TRUTH - Jesus himself condemned the religious teachers and called them hypocrits (I prefer the NIV version, but it's not on my program) and suggested they spent too much time on man-made rules and missed GOD. They made their own rules equal to, or above God's law.... my church has no man-made laws...we have GOD'S LAW - who cares about denomination.

It saddens me that verse 37 describes so many people today - Jesus is waiting for them and longing to protect them and love them, but people are so obsessed with religious tradition that they forget the one they are made to worship.

Catholicism isn't based on man-made laws. And if you want man-made laws, well, I hate to tell you, but your church DOES have man-made rules and laws. They include:

--altar calls

--sinner's prayer

--believer's baptism

--Bible alone

--salvation by faith alone

--symbolic Lord's Supper

--etc.

None of these are supported by the Bible or are even mentioned in the Bible!

[Robyn]

None of these are supported by the Bible or are even mentioned in the Bible!

Ok, I'll show you bible verses next time I'm on!

But for now, I'll give you this.

--salvation by faith alone

Salvation is through JESUS.

If your life isn't suddenly cut short after you're saved, then:

Jam 2:20 But wilt thou know, vain man, that faith without works is dead?

--symbolic Lord's Supper

Jesus said "Do this in rememberance of me".

Re: alter calls etc, I don't think you can understand the validity of the Holy Spirit's leading in our church. Each of your points can be backed up by the bible...but I have to go and enjoly the sunny day! :)

[Dave]

Ok, I'll show you bible verses next time I'm on!

But for now, I'll give you this.

Salvation is through JESUS.

If your life isn't suddenly cut short after you're saved, then:

Jam 2:20  But wilt thou know, vain man, that faith without works is dead?

Jesus said "Do this in rememberance of me".

Re: alter calls etc, I don't think you can understand the validity of the Holy Spirit's leading in our church. Each of your points can be backed up by the bible...but I have to go and enjoly the sunny day!

I never said salvation wasn't from Jesus. But y'all believe that nothing a person does has any effect on his salvation.

For your second point, see what I wrote in the thread "My Conclusions" regarding the Eucharist and stuff you'd said about it.

And you can say what you will, but none of what I mentioned can be backed up by the Bible. And whatever passages that you do cite to back them up will inevitably be misinterpreted by you.

[geetarplayer]

Cradle Catholic (whose parents who are cradle Catholics, whose parents are cradle Catholics...you get the point).  Suffered from CradleCatholicitis  (a condition in which a cradler doesn't really know his/her faith, he/she just does it b/c he/she is supposed to).  Became on-fire for Christ in 8th grade .  Became on fire for the Catholic Church in tenth grade :D .  Currently a senior in hs planning on going to the seminary next year (Cardinal Glennon College).

Ditto all that. Except the part about being a senior and wanting to go to seminary. I'm only a sophomore and I'm not sure I'd want to become a priest.

-Mark

[Robyn]

[i never said salvation wasn't from Jesus.  But y'all believe that nothing a person does has any effect on his salvation.

I never said that either!

And you can say what you will, but none of what I mentioned can be backed up by the Bible.  And whatever passages that you do cite to back them up will inevitably be misinterpreted by you.

Yeah yeah.... I have no faith in any catholic interpretation of the bible anyway. Well if anybody seriously wants a response to this, pm me coz I have no intention of bothering to post.