Anyone Care To Explain

[Anna]

Here they are:

1). Jesus Christ is the head of the Church and should receive primary allegiance from the Christian Church.

2). The Holy Scriptures are authoritative in all matters of faith and Christian practice.

3). The Church is a fellowship of persons who have received by faith the new life of the Spirit and given witness to this faith in believer's baptism.

4). All believers have equal access to God through the one mediator, Jesus Christ, and are responsible to offer themselves in grateful service to Christ and their neighbors.

5). God has granted the liberty of conscience to everyone, and the Church therefore should be free from the control of the state.

No Catholic would argue with these points, on the surface, but what do Baptists mean when they say these things that sets them very far from Catholicism?

[Freaky Chik]

sorry i'm not from a baptist church...

but Joolye is So when she sees this I'm sure she can answer :)

[cmotherofpirl]

Here they are:

1).  Jesus Christ is the head of the Church and should receive primary allegiance from the Christian Church.

2).  The Holy Scriptures are authoritative in all matters of faith and Christian practice.

3).  The Church is a fellowship of persons who have received by faith the new life of the Spirit and given witness to this faith in believer's baptism.

4).  All believers have equal access to God through the one mediator, Jesus Christ, and are responsible to offer themselves in grateful service to Christ and their neighbors.

5).  God has granted the liberty of conscience to everyone, and the Church therefore should be free from the control of the state.

No Catholic would argue with these points, on the surface, but what do Baptists mean when they say these things that sets them very far from Catholicism?

Sure we would argue these points.

THe Scriptures are not authoritative in all matters.

WE believe in Baptism, not believers baptism.

[Anna]

True, but I did say, "on the surface," and we do believe in the Scriptures being authoritative, right along with Tradition and the leadership of the Magisterium. They all agree, and cannot contradict one another...

Who would notice the difference between the words baptism, and "believer's" baptism?

See, their descriptions seem so subtle.

But the differences are vast.

[Joolye]

Here they are:

1).  Jesus Christ is the head of the Church and should receive primary allegiance from the Christian Church.

2).  The Holy Scriptures are authoritative in all matters of faith and Christian practice.

3).  The Church is a fellowship of persons who have received by faith the new life of the Spirit and given witness to this faith in believer's baptism.

4).  All believers have equal access to God through the one mediator, Jesus Christ, and are responsible to offer themselves in grateful service to Christ and their neighbors.

5).  God has granted the liberty of conscience to everyone, and the Church therefore should be free from the control of the state.

No Catholic would argue with these points, on the surface, but what do Baptists mean when they say these things that sets them very far from Catholicism?

Why do we say that these are what makes Baptists different from Catholics?

Oh help. I'll do my best attempt to answer, but I don't have all the answers.

1).  Jesus Christ is the head of the Church and should receive primary allegiance from the Christian Church.

We see that the Catholic church holds the pope as the head of the church.

2).  The Holy Scriptures are authoritative in all matters of faith and Christian practice.

We believe that. I think that the difference between Baps and Catholics on this is that Catholics also believe that there are other authorities, such as the Catechism.

3).  The Church is a fellowship of persons who have received by faith the new life of the Spirit and given witness to this faith in believer's baptism.

Who would notice the difference between the words baptism, and "believer's" baptism?

I certainly noticed that it said believer's baptism. That is on the surface isn't it?

4).  All believers have equal access to God through the one mediator, Jesus Christ, and are responsible to offer themselves in grateful service to Christ and their neighbors.

One mediator. It seems that the Catholic church has more than one mediator, eg Mary, the saints, etc.

5).  God has granted the liberty of conscience to everyone, and the Church therefore should be free from the control of the state.

Control of the state is something to do with the Vatican and the Pope I think, and so Baptist churches are saying that they are free from that.

Note, I am poorly equipped to answer these questions.

Sam, you could have answered them just as well as I could! I'm pretty sure your church believes those same 5 things!

[JP2Iloveyou]

We see that the Catholic church holds the pope as the head of the church.

We believe that. I think that the difference between Baps and Catholics on this is that Catholics also believe that there are other authorities, such as the Catechism.

I certainly noticed that it said believer's baptism. That is on the surface isn't it?

One mediator. It seems that the Catholic church has more than one mediator, eg Mary, the saints, etc.

Control of the state is something to do with the Vatican and the Pope I think, and so Baptist churches are saying that they are free from that.

Note, I am poorly equipped to answer these questions.

Sam, you could have answered them just as well as I could! I'm pretty sure your church believes those same 5 things!

We see that the Catholic church holds the pope as the head of the church.

Jesus is the head of the entire Church. The Pope is only the head of the Church on earth.

We believe that. I think that the difference between Baps and Catholics on this is that Catholics also believe that there are other authorities, such as the Catechism.

The Catechism is the book that explains our faith. It is true, we do have other documents such as Papal Encyclicals that carry great weight, some are even dogmatic, meaning that Catholics must believe them, they don't have a choice. But, the Bible is where everything ultimately comes from. Nothing in the Catholic faith will contradict Scripture.

One mediator. It seems that the Catholic church has more than one mediator, eg Mary, the saints, etc.

I'll bet you have more than one mediator as well. Have you ever asked a friend to pray for you? Well, that's all we do with Mary and the saints. They are closer to God than we are and their prayers are "more valuable" so to speak. So, when we pray to Mary, ultimately we pray to Christ, we're just going to his mommy first.

Control of the state is something to do with the Vatican and the Pope I think, and so Baptist churches are saying that they are free from that.

Just out of curiousity, where is that in the Bible?

[Joolye]

Just out of curiousity, where is that in the Bible?

It's not. I'm answering Anna's questions here, not defending my faith. I was referring to point 5 and to what I know about the term 'control of the state', which is not much. I don't know where the Bible says anything about control of the state and as I was not advocating I do not need to support it with Biblical evidence.

[jasJis]

Why do we say that these are what makes Baptists different from Catholics?

Oh help. I'll do my best attempt to answer, but I don't have all the answers.

We see that the Catholic church holds the pope as the head of the church.

We believe that. I think that the difference between Baps and Catholics on this is that Catholics also believe that there are other authorities, such as the Catechism.

I certainly noticed that it said believer's baptism. That is on the surface isn't it?

One mediator. It seems that the Catholic church has more than one mediator, eg Mary, the saints, etc.

Control of the state is something to do with the Vatican and the Pope I think, and so Baptist churches are saying that they are free from that.

Note, I am poorly equipped to answer these questions.

Sam, you could have answered them just as well as I could! I'm pretty sure your church believes those same 5 things!

Joolye,

Be patient with us, and I'll try to practice humility.

This is one of the things that drives Catholics insane. Take the first Distinctive. Baptists set up this Distinctive based on what they say Catholics believe without listening to what Catholics say that Catholics believe.

Catholics believe the Church of Christs exists now, in Heaven and in Earth. It is both Spiritual and Temporal at the same time. Jesus Christ is always the head of the Church in Heaven and on Earth, the Pope serves as Christ in a Temporal sense to provide Temporal Spiritual leadership. It is Christ's grace (the Holy Spirit) working through the Pope. The Pope is just a human, like you and I, and is to the the Servant to all on earth.

Does a Baptist Church have a Pastor???????????

Do Baptist Churches have Regional Leaders?????????

[Katholikos]

Anna, here's an answer from a former (Southern) Baptist. Be aware that there are about 200 kinds of Baptists, and many more independent Baptists, all with competing and conflicting beliefs based on different interpretations of the same 66-book abbreviated Bible. So it's difficult to generalize. Whose distinctives are these? They look like GARBC distinctives. Another Baptist group might express them differently. But here goes:

1).  Jesus Christ is the head of the Church and should receive primary allegiance from the Christian Church.

The first part is a statement against the Pope. Most or many Baptists don't know (and don't care to know) what the role of the Pope is. They think he replaces Christ for Catholics and that we give him "primary allegiance." We actually believe, however, that Christ is the head of the Church, and that the Pope (the Bishop of Rome, successor to St. Peter) is Christ's deputy (vicar) on earth. They also don't know that "Pope" is English for the Greek and Latin "pappas," or "papa," and that the title simply means "father."

The "Christian Church" refers to the "invisible church of true believers" who have been "truly regenerated." This invisible church consists of all "true Christians" regardless of denomination. This is a Deformation era doctrine made necessary by the proliferation of churches with conflicting beliefs. "Truly regenerated" doesn't necessarily refer to those who hold particular doctrines. Those in the "invisible church" are "saved," and those outside of it are not. They think they know who they are, which results in a certain superiority and smugness.

2).  The Holy Scriptures are authoritative in all matters of faith and Christian practice.

This is a denial of Sacred Apostolic Tradition (2 Thessalonians 2:15 et al.) and a statement of Baptist belief in Sola Scriptura -- that Scripture Alone is the sole source of faith and morals.

3).  The Church is a fellowship of persons who have received by faith the new life of the Spirit and given witness to this faith in believer's baptism.

This is a decidedly unCatholic definition of the Church and a denial of the validity of infant baptism. It also affirms Sola Fide (Faith Alone). The new life of the Spirit comes through faith; "believer's baptism" is merely symbolic and "gives witness to faith."

4).  All believers have equal access to God through the one mediator, Jesus Christ, and are responsible to offer themselves in grateful service to Christ and their neighbors.

This is a statement against prayers to Mary and the Saints. Many Baptists do not know (and do not want to know) that Catholics also hold that Christ is the one mediator who restored mankind to friendship with God, and that we also believe that "there is no other name given under heaven whereby we might be saved." But the mediation of prayer, the role of intercessor, is not exclusive to Christ, but is shared with His Apostles, His Mother, and His Saints, and with His Faithful. The Scriptures are replete with examples of requests for intercessory prayers. "Praying to the saints" means to Catholics asking the saints to pray for us and with us. It is interpreted as "worship" by many Baptists (and other Protestants).

The second part of the statement is a call for evangelization through service.

5).  God has granted the liberty of conscience to everyone, and the Church therefore should be free from the control of the state.

The Protestant claim that all their beliefs come from the Bible Alone (Sola Scriptura) is disproved by this "Baptist distinctive," which is not in the Bible. They even admit it but what the hay, that's okay -- this is one of the pillars of Baptist belief.

This is a political statement in support of the complete separation of church and state. God stays out of politics, right? There are no moral or credal issues in politics, right?

No Catholic would argue with these points, on the surface, but what do Baptists mean when they say these things that sets them very far from Catholicism?

I think any Catholic would argue those points if they knew what the code words meant. You've gotta know Baptist lingo to be able to interpret. As the saying goes, the devil is in the details.

Anyway, that's the way I read it. These "distinctives" are primarily aimed at the Catholic Church.

After all, Baptists are Protest-ants.

Oremus pro invicem (Let us pray for one another),

Katholikos

[Anna]

So, then, what it basically appears to boil down to (imho) is that the Baptist Distinctives, upon which this denomination(s) is/are based, are really just so much anti-Catholic principles, with little or no grounding in Truth. :(

[dUSt]

Thanks for that post Likos. Very helpful.

[Joolye]

So, then, what it basically appears to boil down to (imho) is that the Baptist Distinctives, upon which this denomination(s) is/are based, are really just so much anti-Catholic principles, with little or no grounding in Truth. 

1).  Jesus Christ is the head of the Church and should receive primary allegiance from the Christian Church.

1Co 11:3 Now I want you to realize that Christ is the head of every man, and man is the head of the woman, and God is the head of Christ.

Mat 6:33 But first be concerned about God's kingdom and his righteousness, and all of these things will be provided for you as well.

2).  The Holy Scriptures are authoritative in all matters of faith and Christian practice.

2Ti 3:15 From infancy you have known the Holy Scriptures that are able to give you the wisdom you need for salvation through faith in Christ Jesus.

2Ti 3:16 All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, for reproof, for correction, and for training in righteousness,

2Ti 3:17 so that the man of God may be complete and thoroughly equipped for every good work.

3).  The Church is a fellowship of persons who have received by faith the new life of the Spirit and given witness to this faith in believer's baptism.

Mat 28:19 Therefore, as you go, disciple all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit,

Mat 3:1 In those days John the Baptist appeared, preaching in the wilderness of Judea

Mat 3:2 and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is near!"

Mat 3:3 He was the one the prophet Isaiah was referring to when he said, "He is a voice calling out in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way for the Lord! Make his paths straight!'"

Mat 3:4 John had clothing made of camel's hair and wore a leather belt around his waist. His diet consisted of locusts and wild honey.

Mat 3:5 Then the people of Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region along the Jordan began flocking to him,

Mat 3:6 being baptized by him in the Jordan River while they confessed their sins.

1Co 12:12 For just as the body is one and yet has many parts, and all the parts of the body, though many, form one body, so it is with Christ.

1Co 12:13 For by one Spirit all of us-Jews and Greeks, slaves and free-were baptized into one body and were all privileged to drink from one Spirit.

4).  All believers have equal access to God through the one mediator, Jesus Christ, and are responsible to offer themselves in grateful service to Christ and their neighbors.

(Equal access) 1Pe 2:9 But you are a chosen people, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people to be his very own and to proclaim the wonderful deeds of the one who called you out of darkness into his marvelous light.

(One mediator) 1Ti 2:5 There is one God. There is also one mediator between God and human beings-a human, Christ Jesus.

(Last part)Rom 12:1 I therefore urge you, brothers, in view of God's mercies, to offer your bodies as living sacrifices that are holy and pleasing to God, for this is the reasonable way for you to worship.

Gal 5:13 For you, brothers, were called to freedom. Only do not turn your freedom into an opportunity to gratify your flesh, but through love make it your habit to serve one another.

5).  God has granted the liberty of conscience to everyone, and the Church therefore should be free from the control of the state.

1Co 6:12 Everything is permissible for me, but not everything is helpful. Everything is permissible for me, but I will not allow anything to control me.

Does a Baptist Church have a Pastor???????????

Do Baptist Churches have Regional Leaders?????????

As far as I know we don't have regional leaders! In a Baptist church, there is the priesthood of all believers. The pastor is no greater than anyone else. What the pastor does, anyone can do. The pastor is just a believer who is Bible College trained usually and works full time in the ministry, and oversees some things. He cannot make major changes himself. There are other people within a church who may or may not be Bible College trained. There are other people within a church who oversee different areas of ministry - co-ordinate them, etc. Even businesses have people who are in charge of things.

[Katholikos]

Perhaps a bare-bones statement of the five "Baptist distinctives" would be helpful, since there are many variations of them on the Internet:

1. Sola Scriptura (a denial of the need for the teaching Church or Sacred Tradition)

2. Priesthood of all believers (Everyone is his own priest with direct access to God.)

3. Believer's baptism - by immersion only (denial of the efficacy of infant baptism or baptism by any other method)

4. Strict separation of church and state

5. Freedom of conscience (everyone is free to choose what he wants to believe; local churches, too, are free from any centralized control)

Any church that incorporates these "distinctives" into its doctrines might wish to label itself "Baptist." That does not mean that Baptist churches share the same beliefs. The "distinctives" are sometimes interpreted somewhat differently. And they may differ sharply on all other doctrines. For example, one may teach OSAS, the other may teach the exact opposite. One may teach the necessity of foot washing (Catholics: think Maundy Thursday), another may not, and so forth.

I used to have an up-to-date list of all Baptist denominations (nearly 200, not counting the Independent Baptist churches), but it was lost in my Great Computer Crash at the beginning of 2003.

Ave Cor Mariae, Katholikos