The Catholic Church:The Church that Christ founded

[Balthazor]

"Luther got peeved at the church for you know charging people to forgive sins, having corrupt church leaders, sitting people in order of social status and so on they split."

THis isn't happeneing now, it has been fixed.....

You can Come back! YAY!

[thirsty-for-orthodoxy]

Grace, by simple definition is Christ's divine life in us.

Though it is actually more than that. Jesus's mission was to love His Holy Father, love being a total giving of himself. Now Jesus, being an infinite being, can fully give of Himself for all eternity and still have more to give. In order for us to fully love God, it would mean enduring suffering for Him and eventually dying for him, seeing as we are finite and cannot eternally give of ourselves. When the Son became man Jesus, He he took on the finite human nature because He was fully human. Jesus than set the example an how to [u]fully[/u] love God as humans when He suffered and died for us. Now if we believe that "we become children of God" (1 John 3:1) and that "we are partakers in the divine nature" (2 Peter 1:4), then as such we are called to live the same devoted life that Christ lived 2000 years ago. As we all know, we are human, and as such we are not perfect and that is why God gave us grace, as a way for Christ to relive His life in us.

As for the Catholic Church being the one set up by Christ, of corse it is, was, and evermore shall be. Proof of this starts way back in Genesis when God made three promises to Abraham, "I will make of you a great nation... I will make your name great... all the world shall find blessing in your name" Genesis 12:2-3. The three promises were: 1. his descendants would have land and rule over themselves. 2. his descendants would have a kingdom that would rule over many other nations, 3. his descendants will bring about World Wide Blessing. All of these promises were made to bring back all of the world unto Him. The first promise was fulfilled through Moses and Joshua where as Moses led them out of slavery and Joshua led them into their land. The second promise was fulfilled through king David. The third promise, which is the most important for this discussion, was fulfilled through Jesus in which he was brought into this world as a man to restore [u]unity[/u] in God's people and unite them in His covenant. We see in John 17:20-21 "I pray not only for them (the Apostles), but also for those who believe in me through their word, so that they may all be one, as you, Father, are in me and i in you, that they may also be in us, that the world may believe that you sent me." Here Jesus is praying for all those who believe in Him through his Apostles, who are best represented by the Papal succession. Here Jesus calls for unity among his believers, and not just unity, but Trinitarian unity. He wants us to be "one" as He and the Father are one. Every Sunday, I reaffirm my belief in a Creed that cries out "...I believe in [u]ONE[/u], Holy,Catholic, Apostolic Church..." Throughout history, the Catholic Church has been the ONE Church to stay unified, whereas the protestant believers have broken off into over 25,000 different sects with an average occurance of someone leaving one of the sects 5 times a week. Now I pose the question to you, do you think that is what Jesus had wanted when he was praying in John 17:20-21? In my opinion, the only church that meets this criteria is the Catholic Church.

I hope that this sheds a little light on the situation. I would also like to give a huge shout out to Dr. Edward P. Sri, the source of this amazing knowledge.

May God bless you and keep you in the palm of His hand.
Kenny

[Buzzard]

[quote name='Quietfire' date='Nov 18 2004, 06:00 PM'] The Roman Catholic church didn't even want the bible to be public some hundreds of years ago

Oh boy.

Specifically when?

The Church has never denied Sacred Scripture to God's children.
Dare I ask if you are referring to the time before the invention of the printing press?


Pax. [/quote]
[quote]"Why Wycliff was condemned

But here we are likely to be met with an objection by those who have not a very profound or accurate knowledge of the history of this question.
'Why, then',
they will say,
‘[b][color=blue]why, if the Catholic Church approved of the Bible being read in the tongue of the people, why did she condemn Wycliff, one of her own priests, for translating it into English, and forbid her people to read his version of the Sacred Scriptures?’ [/color][/b][/quote]

[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=24164"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=24164[/url]

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Buzzard, the answer to the question you highlighted is simple. Wycliff's translation was a bad one and done without the sanction of the Church and intentionally against the sanction of the Church. That's the same reason that Galileo went on trial. It wasn't because the Church contested his views as heretical; it was because he went around saying that the he had the answer and the Church was wrong. There can be terrible translations made and for the a man to go around translating Scripture and spreading his translations around, it only makes sense that the Catholic Church was a little worried...they had no idea what quality of a translation it was.

Furthermore, before the printing press, the number of people who could have read it in the first place were among those who knew Latin anyway and the reason that so many others were illiterate was that there weren't enough books to educate people, because the printing press had not yet been invented.

This has nothing to do with the Church trying to control information. It simply has to do with a technological advancement which very quickly changed the world, probably too quickly for the Church to keep up with on the level of catechesis.

[Buzzard]

Yep; thats what the man said
[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?act=ST&f=3&t=24164&st=0#entry423246"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?act=S...t=0#entry423246[/url]

Thank God for the printing press and freedom in this nation to use it[list]~{Luke 1:3}~
[i][font="times"]It seemed good to me also, having had perfect understanding of all things from the very first,
[b][color=red]to write[/color][/b] unto thee in order, most excellent Theophilus,
4 That thou mightest [b][color=red]know the certainty[/color][/b] of those things,
wherein thou hast been instructed.[/font][/i]
[/list]God must of known man would print and spread the Scriptures like the leaves of Autumn[list]~{Proverbs 22:19}~
[i][font="times"]That thy trust may be in the LORD,
I have made known to thee this day, even to thee.
20 Have not I [b][color=red]written to thee[/color][/b] excellent things in counsels and knowledge,
21 That I might make thee [b][color=red]know the certainty[/color][/b] of the words of truth;
that thou mightest answer the words of truth to them that send unto thee[/font][/i]?
~{Romans 15:4}~
[i][font="times"]For whatsoever things [b][color=red]were written[/color][/b] aforetime were written for [b][color=red]our learning[/color][/b],
that we through patience and comfort [b][color=red]of the scriptures[/color][/b] might have hope.[/font][/i]

~{1Cor.10:11}~
[i][font="times"]Now all these things happened unto them for examples:
and [b][color=red]they are written[/color][/b] for our admonition,
upon whom the ends of the world are come.
12 [b][color=green]Wherefore[/color][/font][/b][/i]
[/list]Thank God for the printing press and freedom in this nation to use it;
otherwise we would still be at the mercy of those
who are wise in their own eyes[list]~{Romans 1:22}~
[font="times"][i]Professing themselves to be wise, they became geniuses,[/font][/i]
[/list]Thank God for Freedom of Religion
[url="http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=22966"]http://phorum.phatmass.com/index.php?showtopic=22966[/url][list]~{Matt.20:25}~
[i][font="times"]Jesus called them unto him, and said,
Ye know that the princes of [b][color=red]the Gentiles[/color][/b] exercise dominion over them,
and they that are great exercise authority upon them.
26 But it [b][color=red]shall not be so[/color][/b] among you:[/font][/i]
[/list]

Edited November 19, 2004 by Buzzard

[popestpiusx]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Nov 18 2004, 11:39 PM'] you honour them through prayer which is a form of worship.



[/quote]
You are ignoring the different kinds of prayer. When we pray we can either Praise, apologize (contrition), Thank (Thansgiving), or Ask (petition). Generally speaking, when we pray to saints we are requesting something, much like you would request of a friend. We are asking them to intercede with God, much like you would ask a friend who you want to intercede for you on a certain matter, or to pray for you. Prayer is certainly a form of worship, but it is not always worship (strictly speaking).

We honor the saints in so far as God has honored them by numbering them among His elect.

[quote]Regarding the roman catholic church, do I dare bring up witch burning and mass murder?[/quote]

Dare! Dare!

[homeschoolmom]

[quote name='popestpiusx' date='Nov 19 2004, 01:37 PM'] Dare! Dare! [/quote]

[thirsty-for-orthodoxy]

Homeschoolmom, you are the coolest. I just hope i can be there for you when you need to get rid of that bomb!

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Catalyst' date='Nov 18 2004, 10:39 PM'] you honour them through prayer which is a form of worship.
Thats one part of it aluigi...but Matthew takes Christ through the perspective of Him being a lion. Through His majesty and His king ship. Mark is like the prospective of Christ being like an ox or a servant. Lukes shows how Christ came as a man and had attributes of man and example of this would be Christ asking the father to take the cup away from Him if possible and sweating blood and just being some what stressed about what was about to happen. John would be like the eagle because the eagle flies higher than any bird, its also a symbol of standing strong as John talks about His return a bit. If you look in revelations, the four creatures worshiping God at the foot of His throne are a lion, an ox, a man, and an eagle.
The flags that the tribe of Judah, Ephraim, Dan, and one other tribe also carried a picture of one of these on their flags and this is evident in the book of Ezekial.

Honour those past by the way you live not through prayer. Kneeling down and crossing your chest in prayer to a person whos test is long over, God wants that attention just for Himself!

Regarding the roman catholic church, do I dare bring up witch burning and mass murder? [/quote]
You must be new at this. Just to give you a little back ground, some of us, like me, aren't new at this. We know that you are using the word "prayer" in a subjective sense. Here's something that I posted in the CA forums that can clear that up.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozzie
From where do you learn to pray TO "saints" from the Apostles? That inscription on the Valerii tomb is not the words of Peter. Where is it recorded in Scripture that Peter ever instructed anyone to pray TO him? The inscriptions in the catacombs are the superstitious words of men, not God.Absolutely! To make intercessory prayer FOR someone is Biblical. ALL true believers are priests of God and can intercede for others through prayer. But to pray TO someone other than God is not ever found in Scripture. Paul did ask, by letter, for the brethren to pray FOR Him (1 Thess. 5:25; 2 Thess. 3:1; cf. Heb. 13:8). But can you give me one instance where Paul instructed them to pray TO him either before his death or after? Jay, I can ask you via this medium to pray FOR me, but would I be doing the same thing if I were to humble my heart, bow my head, get on my knees and pray TO you (I feel dirty just saying it)? That would put a whole different spin on it, my friend.

(My post)
For one thing, Peter wouldn't instruct people to pray to him while he's alive, because they wouldn't. People are in a sense "prayed to" after their souls have left their human bodies. That argument doesn't amount to anything. You use the word prayer so subjectively. You remember, the church doesn't have much modernized language. The terms and expressions we use were used way back in the day towards the middle ages and things like that. We don't categorize things into subjective little families of words that mean only one thing as a protestant or a modern day person would. A lot of the speech we use is old-time translation and meaning. In case you didn't know, meaning changes over time. To secular people, chastity means not having sex. To the church, chastity means accepting God's plan of sexuality and love in all walks of life, to marriage, the priesthood, single lifestyle, any type of life we lead. The sense in which you simply ask Jay to pray for you for a certain intention, or just to pray for you, would be the same way in which you would approach a saint to pray for you, but you do it with reverence, because this person is a SAINT for crying out loud! They are with God in heaven in perfection and full of grace. Jay is just another Christian on Earth trying to make it. Your problem is this whole Sola Scriptura thing, which is that you want blatant proof text of Catholic belief and practice in scripture. For one, it's not likely that you find Catholic practice in scripture because practice is another thing from doctrine, and not the same. Doctrine you would find if you just opened your eyes and stopped interpreting things in your own little subjective way. The things that you believe are found only implicitely stated in scripture, yet you act as though it's blatantly saying what you want it to say, as though it's obvious. To someone who doesn't know anything about scripture, that would seem like the case, but we aren't dumb, we aren't new at this. We know exactly what you do to get your info and we know that you're just banking on obscure Bible passages and outlandish interpretations of them.

[LovingIt!]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 18 2004, 10:29 PM'] You know, playing the knowledge game on the internet is kind of an ignorant passtime, considering anyone can google this stuff and look really smart doing it. [/quote]
Speaking as someone who regularly googles stuff and looks really smart doing it, whats the problem with that? There's nothing clever about simply knowing things - its what you do with the knowledge that counts. If google gives me more knowledge at my fingertips: thanks be to God!

[Guest myfuturemyhope]

Not to intrude on a lovely debate on the internet, but I'm just kind of curious about the Catholic faith. See, I was brought up Baptist and I have a few Catholic friends. So, I was just wondering what it is you believe. Like your doctrine.

[IcePrincessKRS]

[quote name='myfuturemyhope' date='Nov 19 2004, 11:16 PM'] Not to intrude on a lovely debate on the internet, but I'm just kind of curious about the Catholic faith. See, I was brought up Baptist and I have a few Catholic friends. So, I was just wondering what it is you believe. Like your doctrine. [/quote]
I suggest you start a new thread and ask specific questions. This thread will get way off-track and your question is pretty general. It'll be easier to get answers to any questions you have if you start a new thread.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='myfuturemyhope' date='Nov 19 2004, 10:16 PM'] Not to intrude on a lovely debate on the internet, but I'm just kind of curious about the Catholic faith. See, I was brought up Baptist and I have a few Catholic friends. So, I was just wondering what it is you believe. Like your doctrine. [/quote]
Sure, I can tell you what we believe:

We believe in one God, the father, the almighty, maker of heaven and Earth, of all that is seen and unseen.
We believe in one Lord Jesus Christ, the only son of God, eternally begotten of the father, god from god, light from light, true God from true God, begotten, not made, one in being with the father.
Through him all things were made.
For us men and for our salvation, he came down from heaven,
and by the power of the holy spirit, he was born of the virgin Mary and became man.
For our sake he was crucified under Pontius Pilate, he suffered, died, and was buried, and on the third day, he rose again from the dead, in fulfillment of the scriptures.
He ascended into heaven and is seated at the right hand of the Father.
He will come again in glory to judge the living and the dead, and his kingdom will have no end.
We believe in the Holy Spirit, the Lord, the giver of life, who proceeds from the Father and the Son.
With the Father and the Son, he is worshiped and glorified.
He has spoken through the prophets.
We believe in One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic Church.
We acknowledge one baptism for the forgiveness of sins.
We look for the resurrection of the dead, and the life of the world to come.
Amen

This is the faith that we as Catholics profess. This is the creed that we recite every Sunday (or Saturday evening) at mass. This is the creed that was formulated by the early church fathers in the year of our Lord 325 at the First Ecumenical Council of Nicea. This is what we believe, and this is what we will always believe.

[Paladin D]

[quote name='myfuturemyhope' date='Nov 19 2004, 11:16 PM'] Not to intrude on a lovely debate on the internet, but I'm just kind of curious about the Catholic faith. See, I was brought up Baptist and I have a few Catholic friends. So, I was just wondering what it is you believe. Like your doctrine. [/quote]
Welcome to the board! Enjoy your stay.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='myfuturemyhope' date='Nov 19 2004, 11:16 PM'] Not to intrude on a lovely debate on the internet, but I'm just kind of curious about the Catholic faith. See, I was brought up Baptist and I have a few Catholic friends. So, I was just wondering what it is you believe. Like your doctrine. [/quote]
Welcome! I hope we will be able to answer any of your questions. I'm Micah, the local Latinist. I encourage you to come to any of us with your questions, especially those of us with the little Vatican flags under our avatars.

God bless,

Micah