Being hopeful

[XIX]

I've always thought that it is really a fuzzy term. Hope can mean anything from being almost certain of salvation to hanging onto that slimmest shread of a shot of being saved, to not having the foggiest idea. We can and should even hope for great graces in this world. What do you think of when you think hope?

Personally, I think hope goes hand in hand with trust that your hope will be fulfilled. I mean, it's always possible that I could end up in Hell, but wouldn't that come from a lack of faith, ultimately? I think there is something more to true Biblical hope than simply not being in Hell yet. I mean, why would anybody rejoice in the hope of going to heaven if they feel it is extremely unlikely to happen? I have to be really careful here...I'm just wondering what we are supposed to mean by the word "hope?"

[Guest Aluigi]

a faithful Catholic should have immense hope that he will be saved. not some slim chance hope, real hope. now, if you've turned away from the faith, then perhaps your hope is just a slim chance hope, but you should remain fully hopeful while you're a faithful Catholic

[cmotherofpirl]

Lets unfuzzy it:
HOPE. The confident desire of obtaining a future good that is difficult to attain. It is therefore a desire, which implies seeking and pursuing; some future good that is not yet possessed but wanted, unlike fear that shrinks from a future evil. This future good draws out a person's volition. Hope is confident that what is desired will certainly be attained. It is the opposite of despair. Yet it recognizes that the object wanted is not easily obtained and that it requires effort to overcome whatever obstacles stand in the way. (Etym. Latin spes, hope.)

[Quietfire]

Soooooooooooooooooooooooo...

What would you call someone who claims that they KNOW they are going to be saved...will or already have received salvation?


(and why?)


Pax.

Edited November 17, 2004 by Quietfire

[Birgitta Noel]

I went to a conference given by Fr. Didier-Marie on hope once and he spent the entire time talking about mercy. At first I was confused, but then the light came on. Without mercy there is NO HOPE! Chew on that for a while.

[amarkich]

Quietfire, a person you described (who claims to know for certain his salvation [i]without[/i] private revelation of this, which the Council of Trent makes as an exception), is a presumer of God's mercy. He presumes God's mercy, committing a mortal sin, and will be punished accordingly with damnation. This is simply because of the fact that Presumption is a mortal sin and Hell is a punishment for mortal sin (pretty simple). Also, it should be noted that anyone who presumes God's mercy for another incurs the same punishment (including those who claim that other people are safe or acceptable in their religions or that they can be saved in other religions).

N.B., in addition to that, it is important to note that Presumption of God's Mercy is a mortal sin against Fear of the Lord, a forgotten Virtue in our time.

Edited November 18, 2004 by amarkich

[XIX]

[quote name='cmotherofpirl' date='Nov 16 2004, 10:53 PM'] Lets unfuzzy it:
HOPE. The confident desire of obtaining a future good that is difficult to attain. It is therefore a desire, which implies seeking and pursuing; some future good that is not yet possessed but wanted, unlike fear that shrinks from a future evil. This future good draws out a person's volition. Hope is confident that what is desired will certainly be attained. It is the opposite of despair. Yet it recognizes that the object wanted is not easily obtained and that it requires effort to overcome whatever obstacles stand in the way. (Etym. Latin spes, hope.) [/quote]
boo-yah!!

That one hits the sweet spot.

Edited November 18, 2004 by XIX

[Quietfire]

[quote name='amarkich' date='Nov 17 2004, 10:18 PM'] Quietfire, a person you described (who claims to know for certain his salvation [i]without[/i] private revelation of this, which the Council of Trent makes as an exception), is a presumer of God's mercy. He presumes God's mercy, committing a mortal sin, and will be punished accordingly with damnation. This is simply because of the fact that Presumption is a mortal sin and Hell is a punishment for mortal sin (pretty simple). Also, it should be noted that anyone who presumes God's mercy for another incurs the same punishment (including those who claim that other people are safe or acceptable in their religions or that they can be saved in other religions).

N.B., in addition to that, it is important to note that Presumption of God's Mercy is a mortal sin against Fear of the Lord, a forgotten Virtue in our time. [/quote]
Thanks. I understood all of that.

But could you explain the part where you stated the exception... ([i]without[/i] private revelation)

This, though, you may need to dumb down for me. If you get too technical, I may not get it right away.

Thanks again.


Pax

[amarkich]

Quietfire, no problem. This comes from the Council of Trent, Canons on Justification.
CANON XVI.-If any one saith, that he will for certain, of an absolute and infallible certainty, have that great gift of perseverance unto the end,-unless he have learned this by special revelation; let him be anathema.

Here, Canon XVI states that anyone who claims to know for certain that he will persevere until death, i.e., the belief "once saved, always saved", is anathema. The exception to which I referred states simply "unless he have learned this by special revelation". This indicates that it is still possible for God to reveal to a man, by some means that He chooses, that he will persevere unto death, that he will have final perseverence, that he will, certainly and infallibly, be saved. The only reason I included this in my response is that it is often not known by many, so I thought it wise to include it so as to possibly inform someone who did not know of this exception. It is just a fact of which to be mindful; the same Catholic teaching is maintained: "Once saved, always saved" is anathema, and those who hold this view presume God's Mercy and will be damned. I just posted the exception in case anyone was curious or did not know of it. It is simply stating that there is a special circumstance in which God could reveal this information to a person (in which case, he would not be anathema for believing or claiming it; of course, he would not be claiming that everyone can know this nor that a person can know this information without God's special revelation). Good day and God bless.

[God Conquers]

The "unless by personal revelation" is interesting.

Wouldn't an OSAS protestant believe they had recieved this private revelation through the Scriptures? Or would that simply be a general revelation for them?

[Quietfire]

I think it would mean general revelation to a OSAS protestant.

Now, I understand what you are saying Amarkich, and if I am correct let me test this here.

If someone who clearly defies Catholic teaching (not sure if one is or is not a Catholic to begin with) and claims that by perseverance ANYONE is sanctified then that person is anathema?

I could elaborate if needed but this may be enough for you to go on.

Pax

[Guest Aluigi]

i think that clause is more for like, someone like the Fatima kids... like the one boy was sure he'd go to heaven after being in purgatory to the end of time.. you can't say you're sure of it unless you say you had a vision that assured you (and then they will investigate the vision)

[Quietfire]

So I could turn around and claim that I am definitely going to Heaven cause, lets say, I had a vision...or I had a very specific dream of it?

This cant be right, right? Any wack job could claim this then.

Maybe I misunderstood.

[Guest JeffCR07]

Quietfire, I urge you to hold on a minute and think it through, and I'm sure you will see the wisdom in the Magisterium's decision to keep that conditional on the statement.

It seems to me that there are three cases possible:

1.) A person can [i]actually[/i] have a personal, divine revelation in which God reveals the fate of that person's own soul.

2.) A person could actually be a "wack job," as you so eloquently put it, in which case it seems to me that their claim to eternal salvation is not a sincere claim, but rather, is based on a mental disorder from which they are suffering and for which they are not culpable.

3.) A person can lie about having a personal revelation, and assert that he or she knows the ultimate consequence awaiting his/her own soul.

In the first case, the Church is absolutely correct.

In the second case, I'm sure the Church will pray for the health of the individual and rightly pray for the Mercy of God on the person, for it is only fitting that he not be eternally punished for the unavoidable consequence of his condition.

In the third case, the Church has still not been incorrect, nor has it done anything "wrong" or even unwise. In its wisdom, the Magisterium has, across all of time, shown prudence and caution with regards to hell any form of definitive statement having to do with the question of "who" is in Hell. Just by allowing an individual to say that he/she has had revelation does not mean that the Church has authoritatively verified the said revelation. Thus, it is precisely the issue of it being "private" revelation that is the key. The Church will only very rarely say one way or another with regards to private revelation, and, as such, someone who professes such revelation may still be wrong.

- Your Brother In Christ, Jeff

[Quietfire]

I guess my issue with this is that yeah., anyone could claim they had a vision.
I understand the Church's stance on this, and a very intelligent position for her to take.

I just kindof cringe when I move around the web and check out message boards and read some of the conversion stories (Christian and non-christian) that they claim they had a dream or a vision in particular. I read some of these and think..How can all these people have had visions of God (so to speak) and each one is profoundly different?
I mean, so different that I find it difficult to comprehend that God would appear to so many within so many different religions and cults.
Everything from Judaism to Mormonism to Extraterrestrials.

Maybe I'm a bit jaded. But when someone tells me they had a vision and God is a woman with 7 spirits, not 3 people, and the Trinity is a lie, I start thinking..."Oh, boy. Here comes another cult. How many are they gonna sucker?"







Archangel Gabriel, defend us.
Pax

Edited November 20, 2004 by Quietfire