Are You Saved?

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 17 2004, 06:16 PM'] the ain't happening was what caused me to make the comment

just keep my warning in mind. i'm not accusing you of anything (it's the devil that accuses, and causes warnings to look like acusations to people)

just be careful, as soon as you're positive you'll never stray from the Lord; you're most sesseptable to the temptation to stray. [/quote]
Superstition. Also known as "famous last words" in secular circles.

Edited to add*

This is also an islamic way of thinking. Just read 1001 arabian nights to see this tradition at work.

Edited November 17, 2004 by noncatholicname

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 17 2004, 06:28 PM'] Oh really?  How about Genesis 3? 

(By the way, your bible says "she will crush your head".  The hebrew says "He will crush your head".  That's your wonderful vulgate for you.)

How about Genesis 15?  When God walk between the severed halves of the animal [i]alone[/i]? 

How about Genesis 28?  God promised Jacob that "All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring".

How about When God promised David that His heirs would always sit on the throne of Israel?  (fulfilled, by the way, by the coming of Jesus, the Messiah) He said, "I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men.  But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you."

These are royal grants.  Made because God can make them.  Why is it that you think God's character changes all of a sudden with Jesus' coming?  Why does God make promises in the old testiment, but make 'sort of' promises in the new? [/quote]
Exactly what promises, are you insinuating that God made? Are you saying that God promised that all would be saved? Christ himself said in Matthew 7:21: "Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Douay-Rheims). I'll give you an scenario. A fundamentalist man get's "saved" at the age of 16. He lives an acceptionally Christian life, and then one day, at the age of 64, decides to buy 40 prostitutes, steal a car, go rob a bank and get away in the car, run someone over with the car, and then commit suicide, cursing God as he does, will he go to heaven or to hell?

Edited November 17, 2004 by iheartjp2

[Quietfire]

We have been justified.
















Our salvation is ongoing.


Pax

[KnightoftheImmaculate1]

So now you are saying that those whom God does not choose to be among his elect are damned no matter what they do, since in your confused theology God overrides free will and only chooses certain people to be among the elect. In your doctrine God did not give his only begotten son for the world, but only for a few whom he has predestined to be his faithful. All others are damned to hell. You really need to rethink some major theology. Yes, you may surrender yourself to God but that doesn't mean that you cannot turn away. You may be less likely to turn away but it is not for sure until you have proven to the moment of your death that you will be faithful. Be wary that when Christ says to you "I tell you one of you will betray me." (Matt. 26:21) you do not respond assured that you will not fall, you will be humbled.

[Paladin D]

And so it begins...

(or already began)

Edited November 18, 2004 by Paladin D

[KnightoftheImmaculate1]

You lie about Genesis chapter 3, In the St. Jerome's Edition of the Bible - The Vulgate - it says "Her offspring will crush your head, and you will bite his heel." Don't make false statements attacking the Mother of God. This is the downfall of the modern Protestantism. The early Protestants did not have a problem with devotion to Mary. But now you see devotion to her as worship. Do you worship your friend when you ask them for prayers?? I think not. When you sin against Mary with insults you are sinning against the God who chose to come into the world through her and had his angel greet her "Hail one perfected in grace...the Lord is with you"

[White Knight]

Everyone here has explained there views on this matter, quite well, however, I do believe that I have to side with the Catholics on this issue.... No One is truely Saved Until its all said and done, and your dead.

The proper statement to address this is titled [b]"In the Process of Being Saved"[/b] quoted by someone who posted earlier on this thread. Everyone here has the ability to fall from the LORD, its those who are faithful until the end who will propsper, and inherit enteral life. The only official truely Saved souls that we know of are the Saints in Heaven.

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='iheartjp2' date='Nov 17 2004, 06:55 PM'] Exactly what promises, are you insinuating that God made? Are you saying that God promised that all would be saved? Christ himself said in Matthew 7:21: "Not every one that saith to me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven: but he that doth the will of my Father who is in heaven, he shall enter into the kingdom of heaven" (Douay-Rheims). I'll give you an scenario. A fundamentalist man get's "saved" at the age of 16. He lives an acceptionally Christian life, and then one day, at the age of 64, decides to buy 40 prostitutes, steal a car, go rob a bank and get away in the car, run someone over with the car, and then commit suicide, cursing God as he does, will he go to heaven or to hell? [/quote]
Well, let's see, we could go down the condemning route... He was possessed by a demon, he was a false teacher, he was never saved to begin with, a wolf in sheeps clothing...

You shall know them by their fruits. Why do you rail against this?

As to promises, if you actually read the new testiment in light of the old, you will see where God makes his promises, in both the form of royal grants and prophesies. It's really simple.

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='White Knight' date='Nov 17 2004, 08:33 PM'] Everyone here has explained there views on this matter, quite well, however, I do believe that I have to side with the Catholics on this issue.... No One is truely Saved Until its all said and done, and your dead.

The proper statement to address this is titled [b]"In the Process of Being Saved"[/b] quoted by someone who posted earlier on this thread. Everyone here has the ability to fall from the LORD, its those who are faithful until the end who will propsper, and inherit enteral life. The only official truely Saved souls that we know of are the Saints in Heaven. [/quote]
The process of being saved... You mean sanctification? That is a true happening, driven by the Holy Spirit himself. God's grace, being free, is the only reason a christian has to fight the good fight. Think about it. Would you really want to work all your life and then get nothing? Or would you rather have a true covenant?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 17 2004, 07:28 PM'] (By the way, your bible says "she will crush your head". The hebrew says "He will crush your head". That's your wonderful vulgate for you.) [/quote]
Actually, our Bible says both. The Douay-Rheims uses the "she" and the New American uses "he"...in any event, the meaning is obvious. I tend to find it providential that it's so ambiguous.

[Guest Aluigi]

"she" comes from a mistranslation of the Vulgate from about the 16th century, but not the actual Vulgate itself

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='KnightoftheImmaculate1' date='Nov 17 2004, 08:18 PM'] You lie about Genesis chapter 3, In the St. Jerome's Edition of the Bible - The Vulgate - it says "Her offspring will crush your head, and you will bite his heel." Don't make false statements attacking the Mother of God. This is the downfall of the modern Protestantism. The early Protestants did not have a problem with devotion to Mary. But now you see devotion to her as worship. Do you worship your friend when you ask them for prayers?? I think not. When you sin against Mary with insults you are sinning against the God who chose to come into the world through her and had his angel greet her "Hail one perfected in grace...the Lord is with you" [/quote]
A lie?

[quote]inimicitias ponam inter te et mulierem et semen tuum et semen illius IPSA conteret caput tuum et tu insidiaberis calcaneo eius[/quote]

Ipsa means what? It says...

[quote]I will put enmities between thee and the woman, and thy seed and her seed: she shall crush thy head, and thou shalt lie in wait for her heel.[/quote]

In the hebrew (as well as the septuagent) it is HE.

[quote]Ve'ebah 'ashiyt beynikha ubeyn ha'ishah ubeyn zare'akha ubeyn zare ah HU' yeshupkha ro'sh ve'atah teshupenu 'aqeb[/quote]

Hu' is he... So I'm a liar am I? How charitable of you.

[Guest Aluigi]

the Latin Vulgate refers to the offspring

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 17 2004, 08:54 PM']Well, let's see, we could go down the condemning route... He was possessed by a demon, he was a false teacher, he was never saved to begin with, a wolf in sheeps clothing...

You shall know them by their fruits. Why do you rail against this?

As to promises, if you actually read the new testiment in light of the old, you will see where God makes his promises, in both the form of royal grants and prophesies. It's really simple.

[/quote]

[color=red]Well, let's see, we could go down the condemning route... He was possessed by a demon, he was a false teacher, he was never saved to begin with, a wolf in sheeps clothing...[/color]



[color=red]You shall know them by their fruits. Why do you rail against this?[/color]

Exactly. This man produced fruit from the age of 16 until the day he denied God. From the time he denied God 'til the time of his death, he didn't. The fruits that came from him when he denied God are opposite to the ones he ommited when he was a Christian. I hope you're not insinuating that this person was a fake and a non-Christian all along. You believe that when someone accepts Jesus as their personal savior, and they believe it in their heart, that they're saved, and that they can't lose their salvation. It would be crazy to think that at the age of 16, when he accepted Jesus into his heart as his personal Lord and savior that he believed in his heart, "I'm just going to do this until I get old, and then, at the age of 64, I'm going to completely turn my life around from Christianity and live up the time I'm on this earth until I kill myself after commiting haneous crimes against God and society." You're argument doesn't slide.

[color=red]As to promises, if you actually read the new testiment in light of the old, you will see where God makes his promises, in both the form of royal grants and prophesies. It's really simple.[/color]

Oh, sure, it's "really simple." I'd bet dollars to donuts that it's not simple in any sense, that you're going to give me verses that can be seen in different lights, depending on how you interpret them, and that they're probably going to be strands of scritpure, skipping from one side of the OT, to the next, then to the middle, then to some obscure place where no one looks, and taken completely out of context. It's the thing that just about all fundamentalists do to try and prove their points, I'm not new at this, you know. But fine, I'll go along with this and see if you really do your homework. Can you, in fact, give me actual scriptures that prove that "once saved, always saved" is proved typologically from scripture? Please don't give me scriptures that aren't taken in light of their context, which is the scriptures before, and after, and with scriptures all over the Bible, believe me, I'll check, it's not like I don't have a Bible, Catholics do have Bibles, and we do get scriptural.

Edited November 18, 2004 by iheartjp2

[noncatholicname]

And by the way, I never said anything against Mary. You just assumed that I think all of that. That is presumption. What I'm talking about is truth. Do you think it's OK to change the bible?

Or is there someone out there that wants to compare this bit of ecclesiastical slight of hand with Luther's adding the word "alone" to romans? Who is guilty? Who is innocent?

Edited November 18, 2004 by noncatholicname