noncatholicname Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 [quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 17 2004, 05:23 PM'] how dare I warn you about the deadly sin of pride that anyone can easily fall into?? He never said you couldn't turn away, never promised you'd never fall away. He promised that if you persevere to the end, you will be saved. [/quote] So you believe that a covenant is not actually a covenant? Especially when God has made many one sided royal grant promises all through scripture, not the least of which is our current covenant. What you miss is the richness of knowing that God is totally in control of the situation at all times. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
toledo_jesus Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 What would it say about God if He simply willed us to be saved regardless of what we do? If He just determines who is saved now then why would He allow some to go to Hell? It's clearly understood in the Catholic Church that we can indeed throw away the great gift God has given us. Free will allows us to either go to Heaven or go to Hell. We can choose. Without free will the whole great mess makes no sense! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noncatholicname Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 [quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 17 2004, 05:28 PM'] "modernist notion" ... yeah... I guess St. Thomas Aquinas is a modernist??? yes, I am a sheep. that's what Christians are called to be: sheep. obedience, humility, following the Lord. if we leave, He will chase us. but He will never force us. only nudge us. He never impedes on our free will and that is Christian Theology, nothing to do with modernism. [/quote] And a shepherd gives up? Only nudges, but how much nudging? If a shepherd never gives up on his flock, then how much does God not "give up"? It might be your church tradition, but I believe it to be true. You find yourself staring this notion in the face, and if you just shrug and say "it cant be that God actually, actively goes after his elect when the stray" then I think you've missed an important lesson. Luckily God will come for you. The alternative is he just let's you go. How faithful is that? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 covenants have requirements to both sides. God will be faithful on His side no doubt, but we are able to opt out of the covenant at any time. we're the ones not always faithful, God is always faithful to His promises. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 no, He actively goes out to seek what is lost. but think about the prodigal son, it wasn't till the prodigal son realized he was wrong that the father ran out and got him. it's always our choice. if the prodigal son had never come back, he would never have gotten back into the family. if after the prodigal son was back in the family, he left again and didn't come back, he would not get back into the family. while you are within time, you can go any which way you please, but these are your choices and your consequences. choose to accept God's grace and keep up your faith till the end of your life, and you enter into eternity with God. choose to reject God's grace and do whatever you want with your life (even if ten years ago you had accepted God's grace) you enter into eternity seperated from God. God's free gift, accept it and take care of it. God runs after and seeks what runs away, but if you don't wanna come back, God won't force you. We're not slaves, that's Islam, we're friends of God if we do what He commands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noncatholicname Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 [quote name='toledo_jesus' date='Nov 17 2004, 05:43 PM'] What would it say about God if He simply willed us to be saved regardless of what we do? If He just determines who is saved now then why would He allow some to go to Hell? It's clearly understood in the Catholic Church that we can indeed throw away the great gift God has given us. Free will allows us to either go to Heaven or go to Hell. We can choose. Without free will the whole great mess makes no sense! [/quote] It makes no sense to you, perhaps, but it does to me. How about Adam's sin? We are born dead in Adam, and our own sin is just more dirt heaped on the grave. This is why people run in terror of unconditional election. They jump to the [i]a priori[/i] assumption that all people deserve a chance, when the bitter truth is that no one deserves a chance. People run in terror of a just and Holy God, in fear and trembling of the Sovereign Lord of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. Why? Because people take a human comfort in believing that [i]they[/i] made the decision. It turns thier stomach to think that thier fate is in God's hands rather than thier own. Which, truth be told, it kind of like what you say in you saying you don't know if you are saved or not. However, God has shown through revelation in his word what makes or breaks his children. I accept this. Why don't you? Church tradition? A tradition that says that God can do anything but wont because of [i]your[/i] free will? Why did Jesus tell us to submit to God if God doesn't want us to submit to his will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noncatholicname Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 [quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 17 2004, 05:48 PM'] covenants have requirements to both sides. God will be faithful on His side no doubt, but we are able to opt out of the covenant at any time. we're the ones not always faithful, God is always faithful to His promises. [/quote] Tell me, do you even know what a royal grant covenant is? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 why did He need to tell us if He forces the elect to anyway? this ultra-predestination you're describing has more ties to Islam than Christianity. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 "Let he who boats, boast in the Lord." 1 Cor 1:31 this is pride? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 "royal grant covenant" never saw that in the Bible or the Church or any great Christian I've ever seen you misunderstand the Covenant of Christ's Blood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 didn't say it was pride, just warning you against the assertion that you could never fall away from God, because that is the same arrogance Peter had before he was humbled and realized he is a sinner and could very well fall at any time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mulls Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 (edited) [quote name='mulls' date='Nov 17 2004, 05:58 PM'] as for myself, i don't plan on ever straying, Lord willing. [/quote] i said i don't plan on it, Lord willing. i didn't make an assertion. is that ok to say? do you plan on falling away? Edited November 17, 2004 by mulls Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noncatholicname Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 [quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 17 2004, 06:03 PM'] why did He need to tell us if He forces the elect to anyway? this ultra-predestination you're describing has more ties to Islam than Christianity. [/quote] Sorry. It's classic reformation. Islam, unless you've forgotten, denies the Diety of Christ, and thus also denies that Christ fulfilled the righteous demands of God for our sakes. It also is a strict works based religion that draws more from hindu tradition than Judaism. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest Aluigi Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 the ain't happening was what caused me to make the comment just keep my warning in mind. i'm not accusing you of anything (it's the devil that accuses, and causes warnings to look like acusations to people) just be careful, as soon as you're positive you'll never stray from the Lord; you're most sesseptable to the temptation to stray. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
noncatholicname Posted November 17, 2004 Share Posted November 17, 2004 [quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 17 2004, 06:05 PM'] "royal grant covenant" never saw that in the Bible or the Church or any great Christian I've ever seen you misunderstand the Covenant of Christ's Blood. [/quote] Oh really? How about Genesis 3? (By the way, your bible says "she will crush your head". The hebrew says "He will crush your head". That's your wonderful vulgate for you.) How about Genesis 15? When God walk between the severed halves of the animal [i]alone[/i]? How about Genesis 28? God promised Jacob that "All peoples on earth will be blessed through you and your offspring". How about When God promised David that His heirs would always sit on the throne of Israel? (fulfilled, by the way, by the coming of Jesus, the Messiah) He said, "I will be his father, and he will be my son. When he does wrong, I will punish him with the rod of men, with floggings inflicted by men. But my love will never be taken away from him, as I took it away from Saul, whom I removed from before you." These are royal grants. Made because God can make them. Why is it that you think God's character changes all of a sudden with Jesus' coming? Why does God make promises in the old testiment, but make 'sort of' promises in the new? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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