Are You Saved?

[mulls]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 17 2004, 02:08 AM'] Actually, "until" can point to an event that might not happen.

For instance: I will buy lottery tickets until I win.

I can say this over and over again, but it doesn't mean that I will win the lottery. [/quote]
until-- "eis"-- a prep. governing the accusative, [u]denoting entrance into,[/u] or direction and limit.


[url="http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1/1100673167-5913.html"]http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/wor...73167-5913.html[/url]



by your logic Paul was also not sure of his salvation, because he uses "we" in the verse. and that simply isn't true. nobody looked foward to glory more than Paul.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='mulls' date='Nov 17 2004, 02:36 AM'] until-- "eis"-- a prep. governing the accusative, [u]denoting entrance into,[/u] or direction and limit.


[url="http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/words/1/1100673167-5913.html"]http://www.blueletterbible.org/tmp_dir/wor...73167-5913.html[/url]



by your logic Paul was also not sure of his salvation, because he uses "we" in the verse. and that simply isn't true. nobody looked foward to glory more than Paul. [/quote]
1. I know Koine Greek. If you really want to try me, try me.
2. As pointed out above, St. Paul "hoped" for salvation, in his words.

[White Knight]

I too am in the Process of being Saved, as of now.

[mulls]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 17 2004, 02:39 AM']
[/quote]
[quote]1.  I know Koine Greek.  If you really want to try me, try me.[/quote]

ok tough guy, well i don't, so that's why i looked it up.

[quote]2.  As pointed out above, St. Paul "hoped" for salvation, in his words.[/quote]


Phillipians 1:21-24


"For me to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means faruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for thst is far better. BUt to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your acount."


He seems pretty sure of himself to me here.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='mulls' date='Nov 17 2004, 03:12 PM']

ok tough guy, well i don't, so that's why i looked it up.




Phillipians 1:21-24


"For me to live is Christ and to die is gain. If I am to live in the flesh, that means faruitful labor for me. Yet which I shall choose I cannot tell. I am hard pressed between the two. My desire is to depart and be with Christ, for thst is far better. BUt to remain in the flesh is more necessary on your acount."


He seems pretty sure of himself to me here. [/quote]
1. Your Greek explanation doesn't change the logical syntax of the word.
2. That verse never once even gives the slightest clue that St. Paul was sure of his salvation.

[Gal. 5:22,23]

Hello, all. I am new here. I am a non-Catholic Christian. Haven't any of those here who are also non-Catholic Christian witnessed someone who was "saved" only to walk away from their faith? I've seen it happen in my own family. My father was brought up in his church, was baptized and even taught Sunday School as a young adult. Within the last ten years or so, he has become "enlightened." He says that there are many paths to God. He also asks me questions like "Don't you think that if you were brought up Muslim that you would be Muslim?"

Now, is he saved? Jesus said, "I am the Way, the Truth and the Life, no one comes to the Father but by Me." With heavy heart, I say no. Some may say he never really had a true conversion. But I know otherwise.

[Lil Red]

what a courageous first post. -_- welcome to phatmass.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

Yes, welcome!

[rachael]

wow, good post.

[noncatholicname]

From New advent, concerning the Donation of Constantine.

[quote]This document is without doubt a forgery, fabricated somewhere between the years 750 and 850. As early as the fifteenth century its falsity was known and demonstrated. Cardinal Nicholas of Cusa (De Concordantiâ Catholicâ, III, ii, in the Basle ed. of his Opera, 1565, I) spoke of it as a dictamen apocryphum. Some years later (1440) Lorenzo Valla (De falso credita et ementita Constantini donatione declamatio, Mainz, 1518) proved the forgery with certainty. Independently of both his predecessors, Reginald Pecocke, Bishop of Chichester (1450-57), reached a similar conclusion in his work, "The Repressor of over much Blaming of the Clergy", Rolls Series, II, 351-366. Its genuinity was yet occasionally defended, and the document still further used as authentic, until Baronius in his "Annales Ecclesiastici" (ad an. 324) admitted that the "Donatio" was a forgery, whereafter it was soon universally admitted to be such. It is so clearly a fabrication that there is no reason to wonder that, with the revival of historical criticism in the fifteenth century, the true character of the document was at once recognized. The forger made use of various authorities, which Grauert and others (see below) have thoroughly investigated. The introduction and the conclusion of the document are imitated from authentic writings of the imperial period, but formulæ of other periods are also utilized. In the "Confession" of faith the doctrine of the Holy Trinity is explained at length, afterwards the Fall of man and the Incarnation of Christ. There are also reminiscences of the decrees of the Iconoclast Synod of Constantinople (754) against the veneration of images. The narrative of the conversion and healing of the emperor is based on the apocryphal Acts of Sylvester (Acta or Gesta Sylvestri), yet all the particulars of the "Donatio" narrative do not appear in the hitherto known texts of that legend. The distinctions conferred on the pope and the cardinals of the Roman Church the forger probably invented and described according to certain contemporary rites and the court ceremonial of the Roman and the Byzantine emperors. The author also used the biographies of the popes in the Liber Pontificalis (q.v.), likewise eighth-century letters of the popes, especially in his account of the imperial donations.

[/quote]

As to having faith that God preserved the inspired texts supernaturally... Why believe that and not that God could preserve you supernaturally?

[Brother Adam]

Welcome Gal. 5. That is a favorite passage of mine.

thank you for your post and welcome to phatmass. You are right, at one point your father had a conversion experience and has since then given up faith in God. God never broke his promise to your dad, but your dad freely choose to walk away from a covenant relationship, something we can do.

[BullnaChinaShop]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 16 2004, 09:17 PM'] Do you believe that Jesus lied when he said that he shall lose none of us? Indeed the proof of one's election is perseverance, but you do not work your perseverance. Jesus did that on the cross.

This kind of scriptural arguing goes nowhere because everyone can prooftext thier way through this. But the entirity of scripture is the proof. [/quote]
Jesus did not lie when he said he would lose none of us, but we can chose to lose Christ in our lives. We have free will to turn away from God at any time until our deaths. This means as opportunities come up in our lives to turn from God we must continually choose to accept Jesus lest we abandon him. This is what is meant by "working out our salvation in fear and trembling." To say that our perseverance is proof of our election removes our free will to turn away from God. Christ sacrifice on the cross supplies us with all the grace we need to persevere but that does not stop us from rejecting it through our gift of free will.

[homeschoolmom]

If you believe in free will, you have to believe it's possible to turn from Christ. Christ holds us in the palm of his hand and he won't drop us... there's nothing that says one can't freely jump out of it, though.

[mulls]

eh whatever. Jesus saved me.

[cmotherofpirl]

But you can always choose to sin and walk away from him.