Are You Saved?

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='ironmonk' date='Nov 16 2004, 09:06 PM'] Why don't you believe the words of Christ?



[b]St. Matt 10:22[/b]
[color=red]You will be hated by all because of my name, [b]but whoever endures to the end will be saved.[/b][/color]

[b]St. Matt 24:13[/b]
[b][color=red]But the one who perseveres to the end will be saved.[/color][/b]



Have you endured to the end of your life yet?

If not, you do not know if you will be saved.

Or do you say that Jesus lied? [/quote]
Do you believe that Jesus lied when he said that he shall lose none of us? Indeed the proof of one's election is perseverance, but you do not work your perseverance. Jesus did that on the cross.

This kind of scriptural arguing goes nowhere because everyone can prooftext thier way through this. But the entirity of scripture is the proof.

[Andrea348]

[quote name='Dave' date='Nov 16 2004, 08:14 PM'] I have been saved, I am currently being saved, and I hope to be saved. [/quote]
you took the words out of my mouth

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 16 2004, 09:14 PM'] all your examples: grace n faith missing! duh! but james, INSPIRED BY THE HOLY SPIRIT, says faith needs works. the rich guy was asked to sell all he had and give it to the poor (a work!) but he didn't. his faith was dead.

[i]The Holy Gospel according to Saint Matthew, Chapter XIX, Verses xvi-xvii[/i] And behold one came and said to him: Good master, what good shall I do that I may have life everlasting?
[The Sacred Words of Our Lord Jesus Christ:]
[color=#FF0000] Who said to him: Why askest thou me concerning good? One is good, God. But if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.[/color] [/quote]
Wow, how flippant. What about the rest of it?

[quote]Mt 19:24 Again I tell you, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.”
Mt 19:25 When the disciples heard this, they were greatly astonished and asked, “Who then can be saved?”
Mt 19:26 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man this is impossible, but with God all things are possible.”
Mt 19:27 Peter answered him, “We have left everything to follow you! What then will there be for us?”
Mt 19:28 Jesus said to them, “I tell you the truth, at the renewal of all things, when the Son of Man sits on his glorious throne, you who have followed me will also sit on twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.
Mt 19:29 And everyone who has left houses or brothers or sisters or father or mother or children or fields for my sake will receive a hundred times as much and will inherit eternal life.
Mt 19:30 But many who are first will be last, and many who are last will be first.[/quote]

And then comes the parable of the workers in the vineyard, to explain what he was talking about. I just had this discussion with a messianic Jew who thinks he can do the whole law and still be faithful to Christ. It's sad.

[toledo_jesus]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 16 2004, 09:55 PM'] God proved in his word, over and over, that humans cant be trusted to do the work that is salvation. Adam couldn't do it, Israel couldn't do it, but for some reason, you can all of a sudden? Why? If it's not due to God's promise, on accoung of his Son, our Savior and Lord Jesus Christ... It's not the work of the Gospel testified to by the Holy Spirit, then yes indeed it is just you, and you are doomed.

But you are not, because the righteousness required by the righteous demands of a Just and Holy God have been met in Christ. This is what Paul tells us, this is what Jesus told us, but the schism of the reformation caused many to take the opposite route and try to walk the narrow path alone. They cannot do it alone. No one ever could without faith, and in the end it was that faith alone that did it.

All else is secondary. Humans don't like to hear that they contribute nothing to thier own salvation. That is a shame, because in the end, the free gift of grace is the only good reason a Christian has to fight the good fight of sanctification. The problem is people think that the fight itself saves them, but it doesn't.

Sorry, but it has to be said. Someone just coming in and crying "repent" doesn't do it for many people. [/quote]
ok. Firstly, works without faith is nothing, and vice versa. Having faith without doing works is like a tree that bears no fruit. Likewise, we know our faith by its fruits, those fruits being works. the argument can be made that good works is a natural outlet for faith.
secondly, humans are indeed not responsible for their salvation. However, along with the gift of salvation we were also given the gift of free will, by which we can choose to freely reject the gift God has given us. We do this by sinning. When we decide to have sex before marriage, or to blaspheme the name of the Lord, or to attack the Church He established, we sin. Ignorance and also to an extent habit or compulsion mitigate the effect of sin by removing culpability. Without culpability there is no sin, therefore a man who is compelled by a disease to constantly shout out the name of the Lord in profane connotations is not sinning. So, though humans can not engineer their salvation, they can indeed contribute to their damnation.
I take issue with saying that the fight can't save you. Why, if you are fighting then you must recognize that there is sin to struggle against. and if you are struggling you are not giving full assent of the will. I would daresay that sometimes the only thing that does save us is the fight. We must fight against our own evil inclinations, and fight against our ability to reject God.

[Balthazor]

my bank sez Jesus saves.....

[Guest Aluigi]

I know the rest of it, the rest of it affirms my belief. You are not having the same conversation with me as you had with the messianic Jew (although the way you paint my beliefs, of course you would be)

What does that parable mean? The workers in the vineyard who had been toiling forever are just as worthy as those who just started toiling, because the toil to keep faith alive is what creates the mode of grace and salvation. so if you've been keeping the commandments by grace because of your faith for a little but another has been keeping the commandments their whole life for any other reason, you will be first although you were last.

[i]St. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Chapter II, Verse viii[/i]
For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God.

But what keeps faith alive?

[i]The Epistle of Saint James, Chapter II, Verse xvii[/i]
So faith also, if it have not works, is dead in itself.

---works keep faith alive---grace works through faith---grace saves---


if you don't have works, you don't have faith
if you don't have faith, you've got nothing for grace to work through, you're not saved

the rich man was told to sell all he has and give it to the poor (a WORK), he did not, his faith was dead. he went away sad.

[dairygirl4u2c]

only three takeerses?

[Guest Aluigi]

Anyway, I repeat:

[quote][b]I have been saved[/b] [i]Rom. 8:24; Eph. 2:5,8; 2 Tim. 1:9; Titus 3:5[/i]
[b]I am being saved[/b] [i]1 Cor. 1:18; 2 Cor. 2:15; Phil. 2:12; 1 Peter 1:9[/i]
[b]I will be saved in the end[/b] <if I persevere[i] Mt. 10:22; Mt. 24:13[/i] and work out my salvation in fear and trembling [i]Php. 2:12[/i]> [i]Matt. 10:22, 24:13; Mark 13:13; Mark 16:16; Acts 15:11; Rom. 5:9-10; Rom. 13:11; 1 Cor. 3:15; 1 Cor. 5:5; 2 Tim. 2:11-12; Heb. 9:28; James 5:15[/i] [/quote]

Edited November 17, 2004 by Aluigi

[Guest Aluigi]

it's an odd thing to have to answer unless you're in the OSAS croud... cuz we Catholics have HOPE in our eternal salvation, not assurance.

[jesussaves]

[quote]it's an odd thing to have to answer unless you're in the OSAS croud... cuz we Catholics have HOPE in our eternal salvation, not assurance. [/quote]

Then you should easily say maybe. I think you feel odd, because you are not assured of your salvation. It makes you uncomfortable to push the button and admit it.

[ironmonk]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 16 2004, 11:17 PM'] Do you believe that Jesus lied when he said that he shall lose none of us?

[/quote]
Only God knows who is written in the book of life. You do not know if you are. No one knows if they are saved until they go before the Lord.

Jesus told us, there are those who "believe for a while and in time of temptation fall away" (Luke 8:13)

You cannot be certain that you are saved until you make it to Heaven.


[quote]Indeed the proof of one's election is perseverance, but you do not work your perseverance.  Jesus did that on the cross.[/quote]

Wrong. Unless you say Paul lied...

[b]Phil. 2:12[/b]
So then, my beloved, obedient as you have always been, not only when I am present but all the more now when I am absent, work out your salvation with fear and trembling.


[b]St. Matt 16:27 [/b][color=red]For the Son of Man will come with his angels in his Father's glory, and then [b]he will repay everyone according to his conduct[/b].[/color]

[b]St. Matt 7:21 [/b]
"[color=red]Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only the one who does the will of my Father in heaven. [/color]


There is no assurance of salvation.

[quote]This kind of scriptural arguing goes nowhere because everyone can prooftext thier way through this.  But the entirity of scripture is the proof.[/quote]


It goes nowhere because most non-Catholics stop learning history at 1517 AD.

One faith that has lasted since 33 AD with the same teachings of faith and morals... only the Catholic Church.

No one believed once saved always saved until the last 300-400 years... Show me once saved always saved before 500 AD.

When looking at Scripture, all verses covering a topic must be looked at in the light of the Sacred Tradition since 33 AD. Christians have been writing about the meaning of the Scriptures since the first century. We didn't have the New Testament considered Scripture until 400 AD. By what authority does man have to know which books out of over 200 where the Written Word of God? Answer, by the authority given to the New Church built on Peter by Christ.


God Bless,
ironmonk

[jesussaves]

You cannot just read and see how the words are used. There's too many variables. Have you actually read those for context?

[jmjtina]

"All you need to do is to accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior,"
That acceptance will make you a "born-again Christian," with heaven guaranteed. Nothing you later might do, no sin you might commit, would exclude you from heaven.

How about a hypothetical situation?

Let's say your pastor became a born-again Christian at age fifteen. He now is 75 and for sixty years has lived an exemplary Christian life. So far as anyone knows, and so far as he himself knows, he never, in those sixty years, has committed a serious sin.

Today, while being in full possession of his faculties, he changes completely. He commits adultery, murders a stranger, robs a bank, deliberately runs over a cat with his car, shouts obscenities at passersby, and then commits suicide, cursing God as he dies unrepentant.

My question to you is this: Does your minister go to heaven or hell?

"To hell, of course."

"How can that be, since he is a born-again Christian?"

"No, he isn't."

"Yes, he is, as I told you at the start."

"No, he can't be born-again."

"Hey, this is my hypothetical! I told you he was a born-again Christian."

"No born-again Christian would do those things."

"So you mean that he fooled everyone, including himself, for sixty years? You mean he was mistaken?"

"Of course. There's no other answer."



"What you're saying is that you can't tell whether a man really is a born-again Christian until he's safely dead. It means you can't tell if you yourself are a real Christian. You might be fooling yourself, as the minister fooled himself. The conclusion is that you can't have the absolute assurance you'd like to have.

"In practice, if not in theory, you are perilously close to the Catholic understanding of salvation.

"The Catholic Church teaches that we can have a moral assurance of salvation but not an absolute assurance. We can be assured that we will go to heaven--if we remain in the state of grace. But we can have no assurance that we will persevere in such a state, much as we might want to at the moment.

"The Church teaches that since 'God wills the salvation of all men,' he gives each of us enough grace to be saved. Grace is a gift, and a gift is not forced upon the recipient. A gift can be accepted or rejected, and it can be rejected after once being accepted.

"The minister in my hypothetical once accepted grace and, on the last day of his life, rejected it, losing his salvation. He died grace-less and therefore disqualified for heaven."

In Romans 5:2 Paul writes that "we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God"--that is, we rejoice in our hope of going to heaven. This means salvation is something we hope for.

In Romans 8:24 he says, "For in this hope we are saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?" Hope concerns things that are possible but not certain, which is why the saints in heaven no longer have the virtue of hope. They don't need it. Having God, they already have everything, and there is nothing left for them to hope for.

[b]In 1 Corinthians 9:27 Paul says, "I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." Even the apostle battled earthly temptations lest he succumb to them and lose heaven.[/b]

Taken together these verses show that Paul did not teach an absolute assurance of salvation. Quite the opposite. Who was more a born-again Christian than he? Which Christians of your acquaintance have been knocked off their feet while on the road to Damascus?

[u][i]"If Paul didn't believe in an absolute assurance of salvation, why should we?"[/i][/u]

Pax.

from: [url="http://www.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_041116.asp"]Karls E-mail.....Catholic Answers[/url]"

[noncatholicname]

[quote]What does that parable mean?  The workers in the vineyard who had been toiling forever are just as worthy as those who just started toiling, because the toil to keep faith alive is what creates the mode of grace and salvation.  so if you've been keeping the commandments by grace because of your faith for a little but another has been keeping the commandments their whole life for any other reason, you will be first although you were last.[/quote]

Huh? The ones who had worked the longest were the ones grumbling. You wanna try again? None of that made sense.

Just edited to add** The messianic Jew said the same thing, only backwards. He doesn't see it as an expostion of God's grace, paying someone who only worked one hour the same as one who worked twelve.


[quote][i]St. Paul's Epistle to the Ephesians, Chapter II, Verse viii[/i]
For by grace you are saved through faith: and that not of yourselves, for it is the gift of God.
[/quote]

And [i]that[/i]... That what? Faith, that's what. And that not of ourselves. Faith is given us by God.

That's the reason that Paul's epistles and James' epistles jive. If faith is given by God, then the works are the Ipso facto fruits of that faith. If it's our faith, then the works are just works, and profit us nothing.

Edited November 17, 2004 by noncatholicname

[jmjtina]

"All you need to do is to accept Christ as your personal Lord and Savior,"
That acceptance will make you a "born-again Christian," with heaven guaranteed. Nothing you later might do, no sin you might commit, would exclude you from heaven.

How about a hypothetical situation?

Let's say your pastor became a born-again Christian at age fifteen. He now is 75 and for sixty years has lived an exemplary Christian life. So far as anyone knows, and so far as he himself knows, he never, in those sixty years, has committed a serious sin.

Today, while being in full possession of his faculties, he changes completely. He commits adultery, murders a stranger, robs a bank, deliberately runs over a cat with his car, shouts obscenities at passersby, and then commits suicide, cursing God as he dies unrepentant.

My question to you is this: Does your minister go to heaven or hell?

"To hell, of course."

"How can that be, since he is a born-again Christian?"

"No, he isn't."

"Yes, he is, as I told you at the start."

"No, he can't be born-again."

"Hey, this is my hypothetical! I told you he was a born-again Christian."

"No born-again Christian would do those things."

"So you mean that he fooled everyone, including himself, for sixty years? You mean he was mistaken?"

"Of course. There's no other answer."



"What you're saying is that you can't tell whether a man really is a born-again Christian until he's safely dead. It means you can't tell if you yourself are a real Christian. You might be fooling yourself, as the minister fooled himself. The conclusion is that you can't have the absolute assurance you'd like to have.

"In practice, if not in theory, you are perilously close to the Catholic understanding of salvation.

"The Catholic Church teaches that we can have a moral assurance of salvation but not an absolute assurance. We can be assured that we will go to heaven--if we remain in the state of grace. But we can have no assurance that we will persevere in such a state, much as we might want to at the moment.

"The Church teaches that since 'God wills the salvation of all men,' he gives each of us enough grace to be saved. Grace is a gift, and a gift is not forced upon the recipient. A gift can be accepted or rejected, and it can be rejected after once being accepted.

"The minister in my hypothetical once accepted grace and, on the last day of his life, rejected it, losing his salvation. He died grace-less and therefore disqualified for heaven."

In Romans 5:2 Paul writes that "we rejoice in our hope of sharing the glory of God"--that is, we rejoice in our hope of going to heaven. This means salvation is something we hope for.

In Romans 8:24 he says, "For in this hope we are saved. Now hope that is seen is not hope. For who hopes for what he sees?" Hope concerns things that are possible but not certain, which is why the saints in heaven no longer have the virtue of hope. They don't need it. Having God, they already have everything, and there is nothing left for them to hope for.

In 1 Corinthians 9:27 Paul says, "I pommel my body and subdue it, lest after preaching to others I myself should be disqualified." Even the apostle battled earthly temptations lest he succumb to them and lose heaven.

Taken together these verses show that Paul did not teach an absolute assurance of salvation. Quite the opposite. Who was more a born-again Christian than he? Which Christians of your acquaintance have been knocked off their feet while on the road to Damascus?

"If Paul didn't believe in an absolute assurance of salvation, why should we?"

Pax.


[url="http://www.catholic.com/newsletters/kke_041116.asp"]from K. Keatings Email[/url]

thought it fit well with this thread.