Are You Saved?

[Guest Aluigi]

yeah, listen to brother adam, it is not contradictory. the verses are easily reconciled leaving us with an authentic vision of the journey of salvation.

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='Aluigi' date='Nov 17 2004, 09:34 PM'] Raph is a resident PM expert in Koine Greek and in Latin (don't try to use fast shotty tactics lookin up what a word means in the language on the internet against him )

his definition is correct, in all three (greek, hebrew, latin) the pronoun ultimately refers to the offspring [/quote]
She will crush your head... Refers to the seed? By no stretch of the imagination can one twist this to that point. In hebrew, it says "he [will] crush your head". In latin, it was changed to "she".

This doesn't take an expert in linguistics to see this.

Fast shortie tactics? Wow, how presumptuous. With this level of self righteousness, what incentive does anyone have to persevere on this site in light of how everyone that comes here is instantly assumed outclassed by your resident experts?

[Guest Aluigi]

i was talking to iheartjp2! and i only mentioned it because i've seen that used (and on occasion done it myself) where you go look up something real fast on an internet apologetics sheet that tells you what the greek or latin means... just saying Raph actually knows koine greek and latin so if you're tryin that it won't work.

read what raph said! it refers to the seed, you haveta have a little latin knowlege not only literal translation of each word but knowlege of how the language works.

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 17 2004, 11:19 PM'] In other words, "she will crush your head", meaning mary is the victor over Satan and not Jesus? Because changing the pronoun in that context makes it say just that. [/quote]
The literal meaning is "she will crush your head," but as I pointed out, the way Latin works, it would extend to her offspring.

[KnightoftheImmaculate1]

A little off tangent, but rightly so, what do you believe about the Virgin Mother of God noncatholicname??? What do you know about Catholics and devotion to Mary???

[DojoGrant]

Not so fast on the HU argument.

1) There are no vowels in the original Hebrew. HU is "he" and HE is "she." How do you know which vowel was actually intended?

2) HU or HE can mean "it," since there wasn't a word for "it" in Hebrew. How do you know it's not "it" that was intended?

3) There are other arguments, which you should not ignore so rapidly. It would be terrible Hebrew poetry to have "he" as reference to "seed," because there is no mention of the sex of the seed; the pronoun would have no obvious anticendent.

4) Masculine pronouns would be used at times if the action being performed was a "manly" action.

All of these things have to be considered. I'm under the impression that you're just taking the opinion of modern scholars at face value.

Edited November 18, 2004 by DojoGrant

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 17 2004, 11:29 PM'] She will crush your head...  Refers to the seed?  By no stretch of the imagination can one twist this to that point.  In hebrew, it says "he [will] crush your head".  In latin, it was changed to "she". 

This doesn't take an expert in linguistics to see this. 
[/quote]
In Latin, the literal is [i]she[/i], but as I pointed out, this doesn't change the meaning. It is refering to the offspring of Eve by refering to the gender of the name [i]Eve[/i], which is [i]Heva[/i] in Latin. This is a poetic device found very often in Latin. The text could have said [i]ipsum[/i] instead of [i]ipsa[/i] which would have referred back directly to the word [i]semen[/i] (seed), which is a neuter noun, however, since the same word ([i]semen[/i]) would be implied for the seed of the serpent, this would have caused a problem in the Latin. Latin has virtually no word order. If St. Jerome had done this, a reader would have wondered whether Eve's offspring would conquer or the serpent's. St. Jerome also could have used the word [i]ipsius[/i] to refer to the seed as "the woman's seed," but again, he would have used this word for both the woman's case and the serpent's, and we would have the same dilemma. There is only one more option. St. Jerome could have referred to Christ with a masculine, [i]ipse[/i], except that this could also be interpreted as refering to the serpent, which functions as both a masculine and a feminine noun (but never a neuter). The only safeguards St. Jerome had was to make sure he refered to Satan with a direct address, thus calling his seed "your seed," but even then, a person could be confused, possibly even thinking that there were two serpents and they would fight. The only other way was to refer to Christ (and, I think providentially, Mary), with [i]ipsa[/i] by a poetic devise using a reference to Eve to refer to her seed.

Perhaps it doesn't take an expert in linguistics to see your point, but perhaps that's because an expert in linguistics would know better.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 17 2004, 10:10 PM'] Yes, I used Ecce Romani. I'm a sophomore in college in advanced Latin classes and I've taken a decent amount of Greek, too. Let me know if you ever need any help. [/quote]
Sure, thanx

[Luthien]

[quote name='jesussaves' date='Nov 16 2004, 08:00 PM']
When Jesus saves, he saves for good. All that other being saved but not eternally stuff is just nonsense. Again, you are playing with words.

I have a feeling that you realize what I mean when I ask are you saved, but you do not want to face the truth of your lie. I am asking are you eternally saved? [/quote]
So, once you accept Jesus Christ, you can do no wrong?

I accept Jesus everyday as my personal Savior. With as much fervor and desire as you.

I dont think you are one to be judging who is going to Hell or not. Leave that to God please.

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='Raphael' date='Nov 18 2004, 04:18 PM'] In Latin, the literal is [i]she[/i], but as I pointed out, this doesn't change the meaning. It is refering to the offspring of Eve by refering to the gender of the name [i]Eve[/i], which is [i]Heva[/i] in Latin. This is a poetic device found very often in Latin. The text could have said [i]ipsum[/i] instead of [i]ipsa[/i] which would have referred back directly to the word [i]semen[/i] (seed), which is a neuter noun, however, since the same word ([i]semen[/i]) would be implied for the seed of the serpent, this would have caused a problem in the Latin. Latin has virtually no word order. If St. Jerome had done this, a reader would have wondered whether Eve's offspring would conquer or the serpent's. St. Jerome also could have used the word [i]ipsius[/i] to refer to the seed as "the woman's seed," but again, he would have used this word for both the woman's case and the serpent's, and we would have the same dilemma. There is only one more option. St. Jerome could have referred to Christ with a masculine, [i]ipse[/i], except that this could also be interpreted as refering to the serpent, which functions as both a masculine and a feminine noun (but never a neuter). The only safeguards St. Jerome had was to make sure he refered to Satan with a direct address, thus calling his seed "your seed," but even then, a person could be confused, possibly even thinking that there were two serpents and they would fight. The only other way was to refer to Christ (and, I think providentially, Mary), with [i]ipsa[/i] by a poetic devise using a reference to Eve to refer to her seed.

Perhaps it doesn't take an expert in linguistics to see your point, but perhaps that's because an expert in linguistics would know better. [/quote]
I see what you are saying. However, it being a poetic device, how many people took it to mean literally She will crush your head?

[Thy Geekdom Come]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 18 2004, 08:22 PM'] I see what you are saying. However, it being a poetic device, how many people took it to mean literally She will crush your head? [/quote]
Many people. There are statues of Mary crushing the head of the serpent. That doesn't have anything against the meaning that it refers to Christ, however. One can say that it referred to the offspring, and that means all the offspring, which is made perfect in the Church (interestingly enough, also a feminine word in Latin, as is Mary). Christ, as the Head of the Church, is the primary object of the pronoun, but in a deep and mystical way, it can refer to all the Church, Christ first of all, Mary second, and the rest of us after her. That is why I say that I find it providential...I think that it was somewhat ambiguous because I think that perhaps there was a poetic meaning that allowed it to refer to Christ and to Mary and to the rest of us (but Christ primarily, of course, and He is the perfect recipient of the pronoun).

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='DojoGrant' date='Nov 18 2004, 03:52 PM'] Not so fast on the HU argument.

1) There are no vowels in the original Hebrew.  HU is "he" and HE is "she."  How do you know which vowel was actually intended?

2) HU or HE can mean "it," since there wasn't a word for "it" in Hebrew.  How do you know it's not "it" that was intended?

3)  There are other arguments, which you should not ignore so rapidly.  It would be terrible Hebrew poetry to have "he" as reference to "seed," because there is no mention of the sex of the seed; the pronoun would have no obvious anticendent.

4) Masculine pronouns would be used at times if the action being performed was a "manly" action.

All of these things have to be considered.  I'm under the impression that you're just taking the opinion of modern scholars at face value. [/quote]
I would like to point out that, if it were true that no one knows what vowels went where, Christianity would have no legs to stand on considering many variations of interpretation would come from the resulting confusion.

First of all, the Septuagint, which predates both the earliest know versions of the hebrew text, renders the line as "he will crush your head". The Masoretic text consists of four parts. The consanants in which Hebrew is traditionally written, the vowel markings, the accents, and the [i]te'amim[/i], which are cantilation markings. The vowels have been carefully recorded.

"Hu" can be used in various contexts as himself, he, this, they, who and whom, sometime directly referring to God himself, although many times read as "Hashem", meaning "the name" (depending on who you talk to). A scholar of the Torah will give you this translation: He will strike you on the head, and you will strike him on the heel.

So, unless one has anti-semetic tendencies, one should be more than willing to take a hebrew scholars word on this subject.

As to the subject of "terrible hebrew poetry"... Hebrew is an inflected language. Saying the hebrew word "hu" in different ways, in different contexts, change it's meaning. It is very proper "hebrew poetry", considering that the word for her in this case, "'ah" can, depending on how it's anunciated and placed in the sentence, mean her, hers, it, and the, and considering that it comes immediately before "hu"... It's perfect hebrew poetry.

Manly? Yes, it was a patriarchal society. But you still want to interpret this as God promising the seed, Jesus, will crush the serpents head where Adam failed, don't you? Or do you want to disassemble your own faith in the process of proving me, a mere protestant, wrong?

Edited November 19, 2004 by noncatholicname

[noncatholicname]

[quote name='Brother Adam' date='Nov 17 2004, 10:21 PM'] No it is not contradictory, you are just not willing to "see outside the box".

I have been saved: We have been born again into a new covenant. We have been liberated from the evil of orginal sin.

I am being saved: We are being liberated from evil in this world. We are "working out our salvation in fear and trembling".

I will be saved: We will be ultimately liberated from every evil and temptation if we persevere to the end.

It is your view that to be saved is to be gaurenteed heaven no matter what that is totally foriegn to the Bible and to the Jewish Christians of the first century. Salvation is not a contract as you like to think, it is not a trading of goods. It is a covenant relationship, a family ordeal.

It is indeed you, not us, who has the "chewing" to do. [/quote]
Ask your greek expert what a forensic declaration is. It is you who cannot see outside the box.

[iheartjp2]

[quote name='noncatholicname' date='Nov 18 2004, 08:20 PM'] Ask your greek expert what a forensic declaration is. It is you who cannot see outside the box. [/quote]
I'm reporting you. There was no reason to call Raphael a geek, no one (as far as I know), has called you a name. They've been intelligently answering and charitably having a mature discussion on Biblical theology and on language translations. How would you react if someone just went all-out and called
[i]you[/i] a name? No one has any reason to call anyone out of their name here. The only legitimate excuse for doing that is if you don't know the name that's on their birth certificate and all you know is their username.

[Guest Aluigi]

GREEK!!!