Pray for the Soldier

[Kilroy the Ninja]

There really isn't a debate here people.

NONE OF US WERE THERE. WE ARE NOT IN THE POSITION TO CAST JUDGEMENT ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

I don't care that they have "actual video". It will still be skewed one way or the other. We don't really know the whole situation.


So quit all of you.

Go say a rosary for the people involved. All of them.

[Don John of Austria]

[quote]I do have an inkling... I know many people who were in and are in the service. I've listened to them, I've seen the results of the training and the effects of what killing hundreds of the enemy does to a man.

He was not just a combatant.

He was a terrorist.

He was of the same group that has been beheading innocent lives.

He was of a group that has no problem blowing themselves up to kill other innocents.

There was no way of knowing if he wasn't packed with explosives... therefore the soldier reacted to the situation in an understandable way, and should not be charged with murder[/quote]

I ave been fired upon by people entending to hit me ( not in military action I just grew up in a rough area) I have taken the combatant out of the man personally with a gun, I was not even required to shoot him, ( getting the drop on someone with a double barrel shotgun tends to make them reconcider a lot of things about what there doing). At 10 I had a group of thugs hold me down and put a gun to my face and inform me that I was the wrong color to be on their street and that if I intended to walk around there I would have to pay a toll( that terroristic enough for you) I watched as my friends 70 year old grandmother got out her shotgun and went to confront the guys who did it, which she did right in the middle of the street. for 5 years my family lived on a constant state of allert waiting for the thug next door and his gang to try and make good on his threats to kill us all.
Do those events give me an "inkling" of what its like to being combat.

Shooting a wounded man who is without arms and " playing dead" is MURDER no different than any other one cannot execute men who have fought you because they " might " be a living bomb. This act makes us terrorist. This man is a coldblooded killer, if he was living next to me I would treat him no different than any other murderous thug, I'd take the combatant out of him with a bullet the first time he even looked at my family funny.

[Kilroy the Ninja]

ok, I've amended my first decision which was to close this thread.

I will give people a chance to bring to a more charitable level.



More charity please. Less emotional outbursts.

Show some proof to back up your claims. Both sides.

Edited November 17, 2004 by Kilroy the Ninja

[Sojourner]

OK, I'll give this a shot.

First, there is the question of whether or not the person (now possibly [url="http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/6502452/"]people[/url]) would be considered enemy combatants.

Under the Geneva Conventions (as paraphrased on Wikipedia), to be considered a lawful combatant, a person must display the following four characteristics:
1. Must be in uniform: Wear distinctive clothing making them recognizable as soldiers from a distance.
2. Must be openly bearing arms: Carrying guns or small arms and not concealing them.
3. Must be under officers: Obedient to a chain of command ending in a political leader or government.
4. Must be fighting according to the laws of war: Not committing atrocities or crimes, not deliberately attacking civilians or engaging in terrorism.

A captured person not wearing a uniform who is caught carrying weapons or engaging in warlike acts (such as a spy) is not a lawful combatant and is therefore not protected by the laws of war. Such persons should be treated according to applicable civilian laws (if any). In practice they may be tortured or executed.

None of the reports I've read so far are clear as to where the man who was shot fits into the scheme of things as far as whether or not he was a lawful combatant or a prisoner of war or what. I think Kilroy is right in that this is a situation that's too close to call at this point since none of us were there.

I have to say that I mainly reacted out of Ironmonk's hardline position that this Marine is a hero. To the extent that all soldiers fighting in Iraq and in other parts of the world are heros, sure. But in this incident, I'm very hesitant to say his actions rise to the rank of heroism -- shooting a prone, apparently unarmed man doesn't rise to that level in my book.

[Don John of Austria]

Sojourner-- these are essentially correct, however I would like to make a few observations:

First the Geneva Convention is not Church teaching, the Geneva Convention allows things the Church does not.

Second NONE of our troops meet the requirements for combatants according to the Geneva Convention in fact we go to a great deal of expense to circumvent rule number one--- our uniforms are designed specifically NOT TO BE RECOGNIZED AT A DISTANCE, or even to be seen at all.

Third Civilian prisoners cannot be executed by the arresting officer if our troops are fighting " civilians" then they must act like a police force not a death squad that is a flagrant human rights abuse. (not to mention the pragmatic problem that it will probably lead to more rebellion)

Four I hate to say it like this but WE are the invaders, like it or not we invaded their country, how many of us here would fight an invader agianst what ever odds were neccessary, calling the man a terrorist is just stupid, he might simply be a patriot.

[Norseman82]

I'm sure the courtmartial will be scrutinized by all sides, let's wait to see what is uncovered there.....

[Sojourner]

Don John, you are of course right and thank you for making those points.

I am definitely interested in the results of the investigation, though.